RP Planning Thread: Dorvik/Beit/Lourenne Electric Boogaloo

[Zanz]

ALL POSTS IN THIS THREAD ARE OUT OF CHARACTER (OOC).

Quick Background:

Dorvik, Beiteynu, and Lourenne (I'm going to use "B&L" to refer to these two collectively from hereon - pick nations with shorter names guys) have been largely antagonistic to one another since Dorvik unilaterally ended the Triumvirate in 5348. Tensions have been increasing since then, with Dorvik attempting to flex muscle in Majatra, and Beiteynu doing the same in Artania. The collapse of the HKA represents a major shift in tone - what was once a cold and distant detente is heating up into active conflict, both as Wortkrieg and with Beiteynu meddling directly in Artania more openly, even crossing a "red line" established during the HKA administration by deploying a CSG to Artania directly. A particular area of concern in Dorvik/B&L relations in past has been the Migrant's Pass, the strait between Artania and Majatra.

Rough outline of the proposed RP:

• Dorvik will purchase the crown of Narikaton and Darnussia.
  
  • Maybe this is a concession by the Staatsrat to try to win points with the Konig, who is still uncertain about the parties that have emerged in the wake of the HKA collapse? It is DEFINITELY so that Dorvik can continue to project its power into the Migrant's Pass and beyond. Kafuristan's fall has meant the decline of the last openly Dorvik-friendly nation in Majatra, and you gotta refuel somewhere - let's buy a throne.
• B&L protest as Dorvik and its friends build up bases in N&D, particularly naval and long range bomber?
  
  • Can long range bombers threaten Beit directly from N&D? If so it'd definitely be tantamount to a threat of war. This should probably be done carefully and after some sort of precipitating event.
• Somehow we work up to an actual war in N&D. Civil war? Somebody B&L funded invades N&D with enough plausible deniability that Dorvik doesn't DIRECTLY declare war on B&L but just ramps up funding for N&D directly? Definitely need to hash this out.
• ??? end game??? Not sure where we want to go with this. Some general thoughts below to get people's creative juices flowing.

General thoughts from Zanz:

• Depending on who ends up on what sides, I think Dorvik should "lose" if it's a straight fight between Dorvik and B&L. But it probably won't be - I'd imagine Hutori and Dolgava (CSCO nations) will join the Dorvish side, and I'd imagine MSCO will largely align with B&L. The Zoo Alliance could also come into play, though since it's largely a proxy war it may not have to expand so much, we'll need to decide on scope.
• With the ongoing conflict in Ikradon and with Beiteynu trying to play off Luthori & Kundrati against one another a bit, Dorvik might try to mend fences a bit with Luthori, using opposition to Beiteynuese influence in Artania as the linchpin of the friendship. Maybe Dorvik agrees to support Luthori's intervention in Ikradon in return for Luthori generally siding for the most part with Dorvik against B&L? But I'm very unclear on the various alliances and such in this space. Just trying to find friends for Dorvik, lol.
• If Dorvik does "lose", here's what I'm thinking a post-war order might look like:
  
  • Artania more balanced between Dorvik, Luthori, and Kundrati as regional-ish power players. I'd personally prefer if Dorvik or SOMEONE on Artania remain capable of some international scale stuff mostly because I am nervous OOCly that the B&L alliance is too stable and may lead to OOC stagnation for us as a community, but let's discuss (more below).
  • To the above, maybe a rekindling of the AU? It doesn't need to be an EU-style supranational federation, but I do think realistically that without Dorvik playing policeman in Artania so hard it'd probably be natural that the nations of the continent would try to look for some new arrangement for peacekeeping forces, etc.
  • (Maybe controversial) - I think we need to think through how the B&L friendship and Zoo Alliances will play out for the community OOCly in the long term. So long as B&L remain committed to one another and committed to White Knight foreign policy, I think we need some sort of counterbalance to them. That need not be Dorvik and it need not even be in Artania, but we should try to set up some sort of longer term arc, in my opinion, with this one, that allows us to keep the storylines fresh into the future. Maybe B&L have some sort of cracks in their friendship that get exposed a bit somewhere here? Maybe Vanuku could take a heel turn somewhere, they love to do that? Deltaria? Trigunia? Kazulia? Maybe it's Dolgava's turn to be the leader of the "bad guys"? I'm interested in folks' thoughts.

[Robert F. Kennedy]

Okay, so, frankly, it's very unlikely that Luthori and Dorvik will become "friendly" again, Luthori has for years sought to hide her intentions from Dorvik, for fear of what Dorvik might respond to. Following the collapse of the Hosian-Konservativ Allianz administration and the "forced withdrawal" of the Dorvishs from the continent's diplomatic scene, what is expected is that Luthori will become more of an "alternative" to Dorvik, in being more "gentle" in his way of managing the affairs of the continent. It is also against the feeling of "Luthorian Exceptionalism" existing in Luthori, such as that Luthori is the "bastion of freedom and democracy in Artania" and collaboration with a power as "reactionary" in Luthori's eyes as Dorvik does not would not really pass through public opinion.

The endgame is very likely to see a duality develop in Artania, with Luthori and Dorvik definitively showing themselves to be the two dominant powers on the continent, more equal with each other.

This is a rather incomplete answer, but I tried to see what Luthori had to do with this one.

[GreekIdiot]

General thoughts on Beiteynu's end

- I've tried to outline what Beiteynu is all about in general, in this informal news post. It's basically the "continuity arc" that justifies any and all movements by Beiteynu. It's not imperial, does not seek to have dominions nor lord over filling vacuums itself. It is entirely defensive. In a weird sense - and that's why Lourenne sticks around with Beiteynu as Zanz mentioned by a "White Knight" policy - it strives for world peace by screwing with those having a say in it.

- In this roleplay, Beiteynu will attempt to disarm Dorvik and any Dorvik-alike state in Artania (including Luthori itself if it continues to act like Dorvik) by doing the same thing: building platforms and creating opportunities for something like the MSCO in Majatra. Zanz suggested the AU come in but IMO that org is too complex when the problematic point in Artania is just military cooperation. I've made 2 suggestions (ASCO and JAMS).

- On war: I have no idea how we can pull off a proxy war with N&D. I'd be down for actual war and sinking of carrier fleets. As far as MSCO, CSCO, Zoo Alliance, I believe the flexibility in terms of scale is there; we can adjust accordingly depending on who jumps into the RP. Ballistic missiles and bombers can range, yes.

- Ideally the endgame of this roleplay should be that both Dorvik and Beiteynu "lose" and the vibrant community in Artania and Majatra take a breath from these 2 overbearing figures. How? Diminishment probably in continental affairs. As Zanz and I fight each other, players like Lig, Brad, Hyr, Wu, Kubrick, Zdanov rise up as both individual states and through supranational orgs "against meddlers & assholes". We move the spotlight from 2 shitty power states to +10 up and comers.

- How we set the stage for the world not to be boring after this? There are already 3 plots on the table here: Beiteynu dwindles naturally as a result of its victory against Dorvik as the "bully is gone" and we retire OR Beiteynu goes under Luthori (this is the royal yeudi plot with the gems - Brad/Lig/Louis/Bei players know) so again we dwindle OR Beiteynu goes mad. 3rd scenario is not your traditional world war against evil but against a weird ass bad guy with weird ass tactics - we decide that in order to protect Yeudis we must conquer and form the Yeudish Empire. Disclaimer: this will be a long-ass arc.

- The CSCO is a potential counter to this new world order but it's largely up to Vesica and Alaskan, IMO. Zanz can't play a part in it, since a Dorvish loss will absolutely mean the CSCO takes a serious slap as a result of it.

[Luis1p]

Just my thoughts here,

I think it's a pretty cool idea. As far as the Lourennais prospective goes, I think that a civil war in N&D would be a cool idea for a proxy war seeing as Lourenne wants to install a monarch there. With recent "interventions" in Ikradon and Davostag, I think it makes sense Lourenne to do this from a proxy perspective. Our idealist foreign policy has made it difficult for anyone to really hate us, except Dorvik. In the event of a planned war, Lourenne would have beef with Dorvik and Dorvik only.

This of course brings in the CSCO into play. Lourenne has decent-ish relations with these nations, so I don't know how far a conflict can go. I think it must Artanian based, which to that point, I think an outcome is a Luthorian -Dorvish cold war. Lourenne has repeatedly championed Luthorian Artanian leadership, so the seeds are there for some sort of influential conflict.

[Mbites]

I've only done some basic thought on these topics but as far as reviving the AU goes but with more "equals" or rather more regional powers instead of dorvish dominance sounds interesting to me.
As I've previously stated I am always okay with setting a scene up for a well-done conflict but as far as how we are going to start one I have no idea. Civil war seems kind of unlikely in Narikaton & Darnussia right now, only trigger I could imagine would be republicans rising up against the government for trying to establish a dorvish controlled monarchy.

[GreekIdiot]

Just laying out my thoughts here, no idea if they make sense 100%.

This post could be the start of our 1v1 with N&D @Zanz. Idea behind it is either a) Dorvik bites back and rest of Artania takes leadership or b) Dorvik backs down and rest of Artania takes leadership.

Either way we're both painted as shitty powers, setting the stage for the N&D fight while everyone else capitalises on the situation.

Edit: the move also kills subtleness from Beiteynu and sets the stage for end of meddling in Artania (sacrificing a bishop, if I may).

[mrcricketer]

We should seek all countries to ban export of weapons to Beiteynu in support of Luthori

[mrcricketer]

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1952&start=780#p190755

Malvia slams N& D for criticising Beiteynu presence in Migrants pass

Asks Beiteynu & Luthori to make amends

[GreekIdiot]

Just adding here the very well put words of one Ligbruderkrieg:

While it's difficult to not be pissed about that decision of Yishelem when you are an Artanian, it should be understood that the Beiteynuese has a simple objective, bringing Artania into the field of cooperation fast, even going into contraigning their own allies into doing so fast enough, that's why the ASCO was developed as that concept of how "equal" Artanian partnership should look like...the thing is...

They want to avoid at any cost the resurgence of Dorvik or any HKA-Dorvish-like power within the Artanain continent, it has been and will remain their objective for a long time. In that aim, they are more than willing to sacrifice anything, even their loyal allies in Artania in doing so.

While it pisses off to have Beiteynu barring us access to the Migrant Pass, it is also an opportunity, and I think that most Artanian governments response had been the best...condemning both Haldor and Yishelem is showing to one that their hegemony over the continent is now terminated and to the other that the Artanians can...if forced to if necessary, collaborate.

Beiteynu, by doing that, just forced à process thay would have done some more decades, through the (I hope) succesful attempt at recreation of the Artanian Union, that process being paving the way for an equal partenership of Artanian nations in the security field. The ASCO, in my original plan was planned to be a decade-long project pushed by countries within the AU before its official implementation by the Artanian Council/Commission. This process may have been shortened by weeks (IRL), by just the Yeudis showing to the Artanians "As long as you are weak and divided, you'll be bullied around in the world, either unite or be subjugated".

What may I have forgot...ugh...yes, the Dorvish' position, initially were into a position of "We are still the hegemons of Artania? Why should we comply with that? We are going to build a team of other Artanian partners to kick Beiteynu and show them who's the boss"... then they realized that Artania was, in general, not okay with what the Beiteynuese were doing, but also not okay with how the Dorvish were handling the situation into making it look like they were still the "hegemon" of the Artanian continent.

In fact, Artania just did (1) say to the Dorvish and Beiteynuese that this wasn't their playground and should begin to see it like that and (2) re-begun the establishment of Pan-Artanian institutions for the greater good.

The sole thing that no one should do is trying to force Lourenne to choose a side for a conflict continents away from home, it's not going to work as it has not worked the first time with the Dorvish. For Lourenne, Artania has a lot of potential, but is quite immature in its conduct of diplomacy with outside powers.

I'll be making a timeline thread for this one, since we've got content and arcs going all around.

[GreekIdiot]

Timeline thread, here.