Feedback: Natural Resources (including Oil and Gas)

[Polites]

Thank you for the links, they are very helpful.

However, I cannot find anything anywhere that states that the index is binding, could you please point me in the right direction?

Alternatively, if this is a new decision, it might be useful to have a formal announcement regarding the biding character of the index.

[Zanz]

Yes, this is binding on players just as the Oil and Gas Index is.

Since when? The resource guides, indexes, maps, and rankings you have put out for some years have been optional for players up to this point. When were the rules changed, what rule changes made this the case, and why were these changes made? I have no interest in RPing Jelbe by these guidelines (which your OP acknowledges were generated at random, and so have nothing to do with Jelbe's historical RP). Do I have to?

The Oil and Gas Index has been binding since its inception, the rankings are "not binding" until an issue arises with RP and then the rankings come into effect to judge the roleplay.

In regards to your RP in Jelbe, you can choose to disregard this list if you chose, you're RP will be noted as being invalidated. I have, however, referenced that I am open to switching things around should there be a historical basis for specific resources, resource types.

Jelbania has Phosphorus (Tier 2), Copper (Tier 2), Uranium (Tier 2), Lithium (Tier 3), Silicon (Tier 2), Silver (Tier 1) and Sulfur (Tier 1). Jelbania has made out pretty well with the randomness, perhaps a little too well, but if you've got stuff that Jelbania has typically been associated with we can make it work.

In regards to the list, as Greek and I have discussed, we'd be comfortable with noting that should you wish to do RP related to lets say a small village which specializes in handcrafting horseshoes for Jelbe horses, while Jelbania doesnt have iron, they could RP a local market for these horseshoes related to iron.

Can you please point me to the rule or even announcement that states the oil and gas index you created one day are binding and have been since the first day you created them? A simple Ctrl+F in the Game Rules turns up nothing. [EDIT: Since I began crafting this post, Polites also noted the same as I am noting here. Farsun is unable to provide a link to support his claim.]

I have no interest in whether or not Jelbe has "made out pretty well" by your estimation of the outcome of this random number generation process. I RP with other players when I RP, I do not RP with Moderation. It is their understanding of Jelbe that matters to me - and up to this surprise announcement today, players were allowed to make that understanding on their own.

The fact that you perceive some nations as having come out well at random means that you perceive other nations have come out poorly - meaning that you believe that it is Moderation's right to determine what nations can be played in what way. Beyond cultural roleplay (which has entire sections of the rules meant to outline how Moderation can and will engage in regulation roleplay in the space), that has never been the case in this game, even under our most prescriptive moderation regimes. If two players or sets of players wish to RP in a way counter to what this random number generator has produced, those players have always been able to do so, so long as they do not violate other rules of the game. This is clearly no longer the case in your interpretation.

I firmly disagree with what has happened in this thread over the course of today. Farsun has (once again) claimed that rules exists which have never existed - put more simply, he has lied. What is the point of this? What does any of us gain? Just let us play the game.

[Auditorii]

Thank you for the links, they are very helpful.

However, I cannot find anything anywhere that states that the index is binding, could you please point me in the right direction?

Alternatively, if this is a new decision, it might be useful to have a formal announcement regarding the biding character of the index.

This isn't a "new decision" and even when the rankings were formally binding they weren't a component of the Particracy Game Rules, its a convention that is accepted by the community and enforced by Moderation. The Oil and Gas Index is no different, several members involved in the discussion here were involved in that discussion there.

[Auditorii]

I have no interest in whether or not Jelbe has "made out pretty well" by your estimation of the outcome of this random number generation process. I RP with other players when I RP, I do not RP with Moderation. It is their understanding of Jelbe that matters to me - and up to this surprise announcement today, players were allowed to make that understanding on their own.

The fact that you perceive some nations as having come out well at random means that you perceive other nations have come out poorly - meaning that you believe that it is Moderation's right to determine what nations can be played in what way. Beyond cultural roleplay (which has entire sections of the rules meant to outline how Moderation can and will engage in regulation roleplay in the space), that has never been the case in this game, even under our most prescriptive moderation regimes. If two players or sets of players wish to RP in a way counter to what this random number generator has produced, those players have always been able to do so, so long as they do not violate other rules of the game. This is clearly no longer the case in your interpretation.

I firmly disagree with what has happened in this thread over the course of today. Farsun has (once again) claimed that rules exists which have never existed - put more simply, he has lied. What is the point of this? What does any of us gain? Just let us play the game.

First point, stating "...oil and gas index you created one day are binding and have been since the first day you created them?" is a complete fabrication, even in the announcement thread that was linked it was done in conjunction with the Roleplay Committee and Moderation. I'd advise to stop lying to people and trying to paint it as I did this unilaterally.

Second, I've never lied and state that the Oil and Gas Index or the Natural Resources List were in the game rules, in fact I referenced the fact that they weren't in the rules even when they were formally binding. You're again creating a lie.

[Rogue]

Initially i wanted to keep out of this but ill put my cents in. I was one of the people that oppossed making the oil and gas index as well as the natural resources list binding. However, the discussion of the time was fierce and fair. Many people pointed out the benefit of such a binding list. In the end, i accepted the decision when the majority of people involved in the discussion at that time were in favor of making them binding.

The people now arguing against it werent around for the initial discussion. If they were, maybe things would have gone differently. The decision has been made a long time ago and im actually unsure why the simple combining of these lists is now creating the same discussion we had back then. We had a discussion, it led to a binding list. Lets accept that reality.

[Zanz]

Initially i wanted to keep out of this but ill put my cents in. I was one of the people that oppossed making the oil and gas index as well as the natural resources list binding. However, the discussion of the time was fierce and fair. Many people pointed out the benefit of such a binding list. In the end, i accepted the decision when the majority of people involved in the discussion at that time were in favor of making them binding.

The people now arguing against it werent around for the initial discussion. If they were, maybe things would have gone differently. The decision has been made a long time ago and im actually unsure why the simple combining of these lists is now creating the same discussion we had back then. We had a discussion, it led to a binding list. Lets accept that reality.

When did you come around? When was this made binding? Can you link, please, to when that was? I only see this post from you, which is apparently before this widespread community change of heart?

[jamescfm]

If somebody could provide a link to a post where Moderation indicates that players are compelled to abide by the oil and gas list produced by Auditorii, or any other resource list produced by any other player, I think that would go a long way to resolving the confusion here. The post that Auditorii has linked in this thread only says:

For quite sometime the RP Committee and the Global Roleplay Committee have discussed and had a de facto oil/gas map and tier system that solidifies the countries that can produce oil and gas.

Nowhere does it indicate that players will have their role-play invalidated for failing to abide by this decision. I share the same opinion as Zanz. Particracy is broken enough already.

In the Particracy server on Discord, Auditorii made clear he is not interested in my role-play. In a sarcastic remark, he said, "I'd love to see you RP militarily James, it’d probably as [sic] outstanding as everything else you do". When I offered to link some of my military role-play, he responded "I’m sure it’s not my cup of tea". I am not interested in playing this game if my role-play will "invalidated" when it does not meet an undisclosed set of arbitrary standards by a person who openly mocks it.

For the record, Rogue is correct that I was not playing the game at the time the oil and gas annoucement was made. As he will remember, most of the game's long-term players stopped playing a few months before this announcement primarily because of his own incompetence as a Moderator. Auditorii himself was among those players to leave and to openly criticise Rogue (known at the time by the moniker "Mr.God") for his incompetence and poor decision-making.

[Luis1p]

As he will remember, most of the game's long-term players stopped playing a few months before this announcement primarily because of his own incompetence as a Moderator. Auditorii himself was among those players to leave and to openly criticise Rogue (known at the time by the moniker "Mr.God") for his incompetence and poor decision-making.

[GreekIdiot]

Hello everyone. It seems we've strayed off the discussion; let's re-focus.

Here's what I see:

1 - This is just a game pretty much all of us just want to play together.
2 - We have some disagreements on the age old argument between binding rules and non binding rules.
3 - There's a need to bring in some clarity on the constitution of game rules and how players/RPC/Moderation interact.

This community and by extension Terra, a fictional world loosely based in real life, is so goddamn robust it takes my breath away. And it's not robust because of its randomly generated indexes that "keep the peace", it's because of its player base doing 2 things:

1 - Having fun with roleplaying, you know, real fun, the one you have playing a game you like to play. I like geopolitics, Lig seems to like navy boats, Hyr likes intelligence and culture, Farsun likes military and structure, Svet likes conflict, James likes, eh, apparently corrupt mobsters, Zanz likes in-depth culture driven geo...camel milking; you get my point. We can pickup on what we like, we can ignore what we don't like.
2 - Having fun with each other. The actual problem is here.

Now, let's take a closer look at the problem. Our tools to properly play with each other:

1 - Game Rules, we disagree on the how
2 - Cultural Protocols, we disagree on the how
3 - Dynamic Rankings, we disagree on the how
4 - Populations
5 - Oil & Gas Index, we disagree on the how
6 - Resources Index, we disagree on the how

Seeing as how we're disagreeing on the how, we're getting back to the root(s) of the age old argument and the game rules themselves. I may be at risk at stating the obvious but I'm gonna go ahead and say it anyway as clear as I can:

1 - Everybody doing whatever they want and everybody ignoring them because of the lack of a set of binding rules.
2 - Nobody doing anything and nobody trying because of a set of binding rules.

Insofar as the resources index is concerned, as Aud also said, we may have locked them down but since we can't really go through thousands of forum posts we will be more than happy to readjust if we missed anything substantial (no, 1 forum post with 150 characters 500 years ago doesn't count). I already spoke to Aud about injecting some flexibility to the tools in a manner of "everybody can play with uranium, but if you really wanna play with it, here's a list of nations that have it in big chunks because that's how Terra looks like" but we have concerns over "everybody playing with uranium negating those actually playing with it".

There are problems with it? Yes. Is it perfect? No. Does it need time to mature? Yes! Will we consider everyone's feedback, corrections and input? Yes!

What seems to be the actual need is for Moderation and by extension the RPC to circle back on all these tools by:

1 - Focusing on the balance of these tools so as to enable and not deter players from having fun.
2 - Revisiting aspects of these tools and mapping out needs on pillars of a) clarity, b) accountability and c) guidance.
3 - Providing updates to the community in a manner that enables players to not only stay up to date but also provide feedback.
4 - Dedicating some time to improve the user interface (aka forums) on where and how these tools are updated.

Having said that, this will need time and in the meantime will require understanding and guidance on all sides (incl. the resources index).

Now, would I be crazy to assume that we're all arguing here because we all want to keep improving the game?

If I'm not, then stick with me; we've done so much together already.

[Drax]

I think this could work for economic rankings if we recognize economic influence may be entirely different from political or diplomatic influence. Think we need to be clear what we mean by economic influence.

For instance, Rob's 3M really did give Endralon economic influence which in fact led to some political influence. His efforts to dominate discord conversation changed few minds but raises question of how discord actually fits into influence.