Particracy Forum

I can't tell you how embarrased I feel about what has happened today.

Article 7 could be applied if military forces take part against the citizens, but the policial forces that have taken part are not part of the military, so the Government has been very careful in this matter.

However, most majors (including the mayor of Madrid) have condemned the actuation of the government, and protests and manifestations have happened during the whole day all along Spain

Aethan wrote:Article 7 could be applied if military forces take part against the citizens, but the policial forces that have taken part are not part of the military, so the Government has been very careful in this matter.

Is that really relevant though? Seems like a mere technicality. One could just as well say that those Filipino death squads killing drug addicts aren't part of the military either. The Guardia Civil is a military police, we don't even have any equivalent in my country, and as far as I've heard they have quite a reputation from the Franco era. It's obvious that the Madrid regime have been ordering violence to scare political opponents. I hope that the deafening silence from the EU tell people something on exactly how little they care about 'human rights'..

It's so stupid though... I mean - couldn't the government simply have stated that they didn't recognize the referendum? There's absolutely no excuse for military/police beating up people for simply putting a piece of paper in a box in a free country.

Elf wrote:

Aethan wrote:Article 7 could be applied if military forces take part against the citizens, but the policial forces that have taken part are not part of the military, so the Government has been very careful in this matter.

Is that really relevant though? Seems like a mere technicality. One could just as well say that those Filipino death squads killing drug addicts aren't part of the military either. The Guardia Civil is a military police, we don't even have any equivalent in my country, and as far as I've heard they have quite a reputation from the Franco era. It's obvious that the Madrid regime have been ordering violence to scare political opponents. I hope that the deafening silence from the EU tell people something on exactly how little they care about 'human rights'..

It does, that technicality is what makes thw Government safe about that possible ban. The Guardia Civil has a very bad reputation in Spain, and yes, it comes back from Franco's times.

The Prime Minister of Spain, Mariano Rajoy, said that actions by the police were "measured" and "according to the issue", and that's what have leaded to anger our population. #NoEnMiNombre (Not In My Name) has been used to express the disagreement with the central Government and the neccesity of Rajoy's resignation and new general elections (I'm rooting so hard for them to finally expel the PP from the Government if possible)

It's so stupid though... I mean - couldn't the government simply have stated that they didn't recognize the referendum? There's absolutely no excuse for military/police beating up people for simply putting a piece of paper in a box in a free country.

That's what most famous people and other politicians from Spain have said, the matter is that both Spanish PM and Catalan President Mr. Carles Puigdemont are both stubborn and don't really care about what happens while they are not touched by it.

800 people injured. 800.

Is there a significant risk that this will escalate into an all-out civil war?

Hrafn wrote:Is there a significant risk that this will escalate into an all-out civil war?

Personally I'm not sure, but various media outlets are speculating about the possibility.

Hrafn wrote:Is there a significant risk that this will escalate into an all-out civil war?

If I have to be honest, I don't think so. And I hope I'm right.

The full force of the central Government is huge, and there is an article in the Spanish Constitution (the famous Art. 155) that is able to "suspend the autonomy of a region in rebellion", effectively taking over Catalonia’s government powers to the central Government.

However using the military in such circumstances is way too far. Doing so would remember the Spaniards the actions of the Franco dictatorship that ended just 40 years ago, and would decrease even more the support for the national government in all Spain. Also, many people here believe that one of the reasons we have ended in this situation is because the obstinacy of Mariano Rajoy and Carles Puigdemont.

Also, the left can call for a motion of no-confidence against the current Government if the situation keeps rising (the left has always promised better relationships and new statuses to all Spanish communities), with the votes in favour of the PSOE (85 seats), Podemos (71), and probably the nationalists parties: ERC (9), CDC (8) and PNV (5), with a total of 178 out of 350, enough to replace the current Government. Of course this is unlikely right now and was unlikely when we had the elections, but if the situation rises, it will be probably talked about.

On the other side, the Catalan region has no army (same with the rest of regions) apart from the civil police, Mossos d'Esquadra, and the military is totally loyal to the central Government and the Chief of State, the King, who also commands the Armed Forces. A problem is also that the Catalan Government is substained by the CUP, which pushes its Government to keep going forward ignoring any advices.

Riots, protests, general strikes? Yes, we are already having them and tomorrow there will be a big one. The Catalan Government has also announced a unilateral declaration of independence in two days, with the opposition of the Mayor of Barcelona. After that, we will see what happens... But I don't think a civil war is on the table.

Really disappointed in the king. Just because his dad was appointed by Franco doesn't mean he has to lead by his example. Isn't a constitutional monarch supposed to be above pretty politics and act like a father/mother for all of the nation? He sounded almost like any EU-bureaucrat, sitting there with the EU flag on his left....

I hope the government falls before there's any future violence... but if it'd come to an UDI, even if Spain could military occupy Catalonia, would it really be worth the cost in lives and resources, enough for most Spaniards to support it? I remember Churchill saying something about the UK being perfectly able to occupy Ireland had it wanted back in the days, it just wasn't worth the costs.

No, most Spaniards would never support sending the military to Catalonia.

I support the EU. Not the current EU, but an EU with some improvements and changes. Apart from that, all official conferences in EU countries appear with the EU flag.

The king's speech was far below the expected (for those who still expect something from the king). A five minutes long speech without a single mention to the injured, to reconciliation, having behind him the portrait of Charles III... as a famous TV presenter said "A non-historical speech for an historical moment".
Those were the reactions to his speech from our politicians and famous people:

https://twitter.com/PPopular/status/915296469732773888

The Royal House is guarantor of the harmony, the coexistence, the legality and the historical continuity of Spain, Popular Party (In Government)

https://twitter.com/Albert_Rivera/status/915301250027188224

Spain needs hope and leadership. The King has given face for all of us. It is time to act to guarantee the union of all Spaniards, Albert Rivera, leader of Ciudadanos,
4th force in the Congress

https://twitter.com/Pablo_Iglesias_/status/915293825232441346

As president of a parliamentary group representing more than 5 million Spaniards, I say to the non voted King: not in our name, Pablo Iglesias, leader of Unidos Podemos, 3rd force in the Congress

https://twitter.com/agarzon/status/915293289393291264

Not a single call to dialogue! The head of state has just turned in the most infamous position: the lack of politics. Long live the Republic!, Alberto Garzón, leader of Izquierda Unida, joint candidature with Unidos Podemos.

https://twitter.com/AdaColau/status/915306712499998720

Not a single solution. Not a single mention about the injured. Not a single call for dialogue. Irresponsible and unworthy speech of a head of state #King, Ada Colau,
major of Barcelona

https://twitter.com/monicaoltra/status/915296262034993152

Summary: "Think freely in democracy, as long as you think the same thing as I do." Voltaire romping in the grave. Dynamited bridges #King, Mónica Oltra, Vice President of the Valencian Community

https://twitter.com/Rita_Maestre/status/915304366202122240

The essence of democratic politics is to convince
The goal of good politics, to seek the widest possible solutions
Neither of them done., Rita Maestre, Spokesperson of the City of Madrid

https://twitter.com/iurkullu/status/915311893094522881

Total perplexity about the televised speech of D. Felipe VI: maximum disappointment and concern., Iñigo Urkullu, President of the Basque Country

https://twitter.com/susanadiaz/status/915301929416306689

I share the defense of the Constitution, democracy and the coexistence of all the Spaniards that the King has done., Susana Díaz, President of Andalusia

https://twitter.com/gabrielrufian/status/915298802998923269

FeliPPeGabriel Rufián, ERC deputy, in reference to the Popular Party (PP) and the King Felipe.

As you can see, our politicians are also very divided, but mostly everyone was truly dissapointed with the monarch.

Yesterday night, The catalan Government declared unilaterally the independence of Catalonia (with 70 votes in favour, 10 against and 2 abstentions, out of 135 seats), and the Spanish Government automatically suspended de Catalan Government and replaced it. Today, the Catalan Government has announced that they do not recognize such suspension.

Nations not recognizing the Catalan Republic (56):

Andorra
Argentina
Australia
Azerbaijan
Belgium
Bolivia
Bulgaria
Canada
Chile
Colombia
Costa Rica
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Ecuador
Estonia
Finland
France
Georgia
Germany
Greece
Guatemala
Honduras
Hungary
Indonesia
Ireland
Italy
Kazakhstan
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Mali
Malta
Mexico
Moldova
Morocco
Netherlands
Norway
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Russia
Senegal
Serbia
Spain
Sweden
South Korea
Sri Lanka
Switzerland
Turkey
Ukraine
United Kingdom
United States
+
City of Barcelona

Nations recognizing the Catalan Republic:

Currently none




Personally I have always been a huge supporter of self-determination and the right of territories to decide about themselves, but naming themselves as a "colony", calling the rest of Spain as "invaders" and so is a huge lack of History lessons. Both Governments, the Catalan and the Spanish, have failed in finding a solution. But this, what the Catalan Government has done, with a referendum where the "yes" vote achieved a total of 37% out of the Catalan population, is just not right.