Study shows that Disney Films aren't Gay Enough

Anything that is not directly related to the game or its community.

Re: Study shows that Disney Films aren't Gay Enough

Postby Chazza » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:29 am

Molotov wrote:A lot of it depends on how easily the immigrants are naturalised. How well they 'fit in', I suppose. I think Jamaicans and other blacks from the Caribbean became British (or already were quite British) much more easily than do immigrants from the Middle East or the Indian sub-continent these days.


I'd agree to an extent, although when the first Caribbean immigrants came over there was mass racism against them which has gradually declined over time, I think the same thing is now being faced by Muslim (to use a broad term) immigrants which I will imagine (unless the BNP get their way) was decline in the same way.
User avatar
Chazza
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Study shows that Disney Films aren't Gay Enough

Postby Molotov » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:42 am

Chazza wrote:
Molotov wrote:A lot of it depends on how easily the immigrants are naturalised. How well they 'fit in', I suppose. I think Jamaicans and other blacks from the Caribbean became British (or already were quite British) much more easily than do immigrants from the Middle East or the Indian sub-continent these days.


I'd agree to an extent, although when the first Caribbean immigrants came over there was mass racism against them which has gradually declined over time, I think the same thing is now being faced by Muslim (to use a broad term) immigrants which I will imagine (unless the BNP get their way) was decline in the same way.


Actually, I see the opposite happening. The Muslim religious identity forms a kind of counter-culture. It serves to culturally segregate them from an increasingly secular, or at the very least liberal, British population. Without any actions on the part of the host nation or culture, the Muslim population has failed to make any effort to integrate, and I don't even pay much attention to this but I notice it. The only naturalised Muslims I've met have been the ones who don't pray, eat pork and whatnot. The ones who don't identify with their religion, or their previous culture, over British culture. Now, as the Muslim population is driven up by immigration rather than births (as was the black Caribbean population), it is less likely that over time second and third generation Muslims will form the majority of Muslims in Britain and so result in a decline of a Muslim religious counter-culture.

Why is this? Well, people from the Middle East and the India aren't like the blacks from the Caribbean. They have huge families in their home countries, and tend to bring them over here over time (to go to school, and so on). With the Caribbeans, it was a case of individual male workers immigrating, or small families, not vast and interchangeable numbers of people, many of whom (especially the women) speak no English. The divide between the Muslim population and the British population is a cultural one, which is a much harder thing to solve than the divide between the black and British population.

edit: I mean, people have been moving here from the Middle East and India from only shortly after the Caribbeans started coming, but they are much less integrated.
User avatar
Molotov
 
Posts: 688
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Study shows that Disney Films aren't Gay Enough

Postby Chazza » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:48 pm

Molotov wrote:Actually, I see the opposite happening. The Muslim religious identity forms a kind of counter-culture. It serves to culturally segregate them from an increasingly secular, or at the very least liberal, British population. Without any actions on the part of the host nation or culture, the Muslim population has failed to make any effort to integrate, and I don't even pay much attention to this but I notice it. The only naturalised Muslims I've met have been the ones who don't pray, eat pork and whatnot. The ones who don't identify with their religion, or their previous culture, over British culture. Now, as the Muslim population is driven up by immigration rather than births (as was the black Caribbean population), it is less likely that over time second and third generation Muslims will form the majority of Muslims in Britain and so result in a decline of a Muslim religious counter-culture.

Why is this? Well, people from the Middle East and the India aren't like the blacks from the Caribbean. They have huge families in their home countries, and tend to bring them over here over time (to go to school, and so on). With the Caribbeans, it was a case of individual male workers immigrating, or small families, not vast and interchangeable numbers of people, many of whom (especially the women) speak no English. The divide between the Muslim population and the British population is a cultural one, which is a much harder thing to solve than the divide between the black and British population.

edit: I mean, people have been moving here from the Middle East and India from only shortly after the Caribbeans started coming, but they are much less integrated.


I would disagree in that I do know practicing, religious Muslims who are integrated with other cultures/religions, I know the 'my mate' argument is normally a pretty weak one but this has been my experience of growing up. Yet at the same time it is hard for Muslims to integrate into a culture dominated by the Mail calling them out as terrorists at any chance they may get, or people charging around Luton beating up 'Asians' or even at my school after 7/7 with 'your lot did this' comments. Furthermore when this is in the same state that has been part of brutal invasions of predominantly Muslim countries and continues to support Israeli oppression of the Palestinians (an issue that 9 out of 10 Muslims wherever they may be will feel strongly about) it becomes even harder. However I do agree with you on the generation gap issue.
User avatar
Chazza
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Study shows that Disney Films aren't Gay Enough

Postby Chazza » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:29 pm

Additionally while the BNP are always so eager to paint themselves as saving us from the evils of terrorism, let's look what they've been up to;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 638139.ece

Thirty-two people have been questioned in a police operation that raises the prospect of a right-wing bombing campaign against mosques. Police are said to have recovered a British National party membership card and other right-wing literature during a raid on the home of one suspect charged under the Terrorism Act.


All I can really say is;

Image
User avatar
Chazza
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Study shows that Disney Films aren't Gay Enough

Postby Khaler » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:33 pm

It is very hard, if not impossible, for a muslim to integrate into western world and maintain his or her religion. That is a fact shown by all studies. At the moment there really is no moderate islam anywhere in the world, the one that would be required to make it possible to integrate into western values. Actually I think muslims integrate much better into USA than Europe because of the already strong and partially similiar religious conservatism there.

The thing is, we in europe have gone through hell and back to create societies that are stable, safe and free. It took centuries, if not millenias to achieve this point, and it just makes no sense to bring people who do not share the same love and care for our ideals from the middle-east. If we want to ensure these liberties we have achieved are here to stay, we have to limit the liberties of immigrants, cold truth. There should be no room for islam in Europe, not untill someone can come up with interpretation of islam that can be described as moderate. It is like trying to push a cube through a hole that is round, in the end one of them is going to break and there is no way for both of them to remain intact. It is up to us to choose which one remains.

Many westerners refuse to admit the fact that religion is no longer part of the "western ideology". Christianity left it's greatest ideals into it, but in general, forms of religion can't dictate it anymore. And Islam is not the only religion that is directly against the "western ideals", many factions of Christianity are also, but the thing is our "general christian interpretation" of our holy texts has evolved into more moderate ways in the last millenia. The Book says and "orders" many horrendous things, but we don't follow them. Religion and Western Ideals can coexist, as they do all the time, but it requires great concessions from the religion. Now it would be ridiculous to assume that muslims could have the same kind of religious evolution in few generations that took us centuries.
Be on your OLD GUARD, stand firm in the faith!
-1 Selucians 16:13
Khaler
 
Posts: 688
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:19 pm
Location: Great Democratic Republic of Khaleristan, a member of the caring and loving Russian Federation!

Re: Study shows that Disney Films aren't Gay Enough

Postby Molotov » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:44 pm

I agree. What we saw was that in Britain, gradually religious prescriptions were replaced with liberal prescriptions, to the extent that the Church of England lost much of its power, and went from being a dominant political institution to having its followers known as 'Tories at prayer'. Much more recently, Europe has followed suit. There isn't really room for a political or religious culture in Britain and Europe that is not liberal, to a greater or lesser extent, and Islam on the whole is not liberal, and Islamism is about as far removed from what is currently (and what should be) acceptable in Britain and Europe as is fascism or communism.
User avatar
Molotov
 
Posts: 688
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Study shows that Disney Films aren't Gay Enough

Postby Chazza » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:58 pm

Molotov wrote:There isn't really room for a political or religious culture in Britain and Europe that is not liberal, to a greater or lesser extent, and Islam on the whole is not liberal, and Islamism is about as far removed from what is currently (and what should be) acceptable in Britain and Europe as is fascism or communism.


It's a bit misleading to say 'Islam on the whole is not liberal' as Islam as a religion is as liberal or illiberal as Christianity or Judaism, saying it is theologically less suited to Europe than them is ridiculous. Of course Islamism is entirely repulsive as are the policies of many 'Islamic states' but that does not mean we should condemn all Muslims and simply write them off.
User avatar
Chazza
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Study shows that Disney Films aren't Gay Enough

Postby Khaler » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:10 pm

Yes, Islam could be as moderate as modern interpertations of christianity is, but the fact is that IT IS NOT. And you just can't change that in few decades, it will take centuries, just as it took with christianity. You can't deny that.
Be on your OLD GUARD, stand firm in the faith!
-1 Selucians 16:13
Khaler
 
Posts: 688
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:19 pm
Location: Great Democratic Republic of Khaleristan, a member of the caring and loving Russian Federation!

Re: Study shows that Disney Films aren't Gay Enough

Postby Chazza » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:14 pm

Khaler wrote:Yes, Islam could be as moderate as modern interpertations of christianity is, but the fact is that IT IS NOT. And you just can't change that in few decades, it will take centuries, just as it took with christianity. You can't deny that.


But it's not just as black and white as that, I know Muslim socialists, Muslim anarchists, Muslim liberals, Muslim conservatives, Muslim everything. The reason we are dealing with fundamentalist Islam in such a way though, speaking from a British perspective, is due to the racist/imperialist policies pursued by our state and others (such as the BNP) not because these Muslims just hate us for no reason or because they are intrinsically programmed to hate non-Muslims.
User avatar
Chazza
 
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Study shows that Disney Films aren't Gay Enough

Postby Khaler » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:07 pm

Chazza wrote:But it's not just as black and white as that, I know Muslim socialists, Muslim anarchists, Muslim liberals, Muslim conservatives, Muslim everything. The reason we are dealing with fundamentalist Islam in such a way though, speaking from a British perspective, is due to the racist/imperialist policies pursued by our state and others (such as the BNP) not because these Muslims just hate us for no reason or because they are intrinsically programmed to hate non-Muslims.


Please, that is just not true. Sweden, the most liberal country in the world, has the exact same problems with them. Sweden has done everything to make them feel comfortable and welcome and they STILL turn against them. And I can assure you there are no racist or imperialist policies in Sweden. As a counter raction though, extreme right has risen in Sweden lately. What is even more terrifying in Sweden (and Finland, as we always drag behind them in everything) is the complete media silence of these problems. In Sweden, many Jews have been threatened and even attacked and when they complained about it publicly, the local government turned the blame on white supremacy movements - even though the Jewish Community made it very clear that they were threatened and harrased by muslims. I just wonder what these Jews had done to the muslims, they are not running the Racist and Imperialistic Christian Kingdom of Sweden as far as I know. Ofcourse not all muslimes were behind this thing, and there is no reason to blame them all, but it just shows the problems unfitting religious interpretations will cause in the west.

There would be no reason for them to hate us if we would just leave them alone in their desert. But we didn't. Someone messed things up and we are going to pay the price.

The entire fantasy over multiculturalism is insane. Not once in history of man has a multicultural nation survived without bloodshed. The Western Culture has merged into one, larger cultural entity that can finally exist in peace with eachother, but now we are ruining it by bringing in people who are just not compatible with our culture and ideologies. It will cause violence and bloodshed in the future. Man has not changed, and man will never change.

Sadly, to date the best way to integrate people is to strip them of their own culture, just like they did in americas with the slaves. They either abosrbed the majority culture, or created their very own from a scratch or by combining others. If you let them keep their culture that contradicts too much with the majority, they will become a problem eventually.
Be on your OLD GUARD, stand firm in the faith!
-1 Selucians 16:13
Khaler
 
Posts: 688
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:19 pm
Location: Great Democratic Republic of Khaleristan, a member of the caring and loving Russian Federation!

PreviousNext

Return to Off-topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

cron