Welfare more important than democracy

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Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Opakidabar » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:46 pm

People do not value democracy high, one would choose secured and highly paid job in authoritarian nation rather than being poor in democracy.
Agree, disagree?

Reason why I put this sentence was one discussion I happened to read in one not political forum. One side was telling that democracy was good because people from authoritarian/totalitarian systems are trying to escape to democratic nations. Another side had counterargument - people from Ukraine (democracy) moved to Russia (authoritarian nation) because of higher welfare and more jobs available.

The question however is if one thinking of his own life would even consider democracy as a factor. Security and not being taken out in the night - Yes. Democracy? Not me.
For example people in Latvia remember our own only national authoritarian regime (Karlis Ulmanis regime) as "good old Ulmanis times" - patriotism was on rise, exports and production levels good and we were among top in Europe for agriculture and had decent industry as well.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Mr.Yankees » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:56 pm

Opakidabar wrote:People do not value democracy high, one would choose secured and highly paid job in authoritarian nation rather than being poor in democracy.
Agree, disagree?

Reason why I put this sentence was one discussion I happened to read in one not political forum. One side was telling that democracy was good because people from authoritarian/totalitarian systems are trying to escape to democratic nations. Another side had counterargument - people from Ukraine (democracy) moved to Russia (authoritarian nation) because of higher welfare and more jobs available.

The question however is if one thinking of his own life would even consider democracy as a factor. Security and not being taken out in the night - Yes. Democracy? Not me.
For example people in Latvia remember our own only national authoritarian regime (Karlis Ulmanis regime) as "good old Ulmanis times" - patriotism was on rise, exports and production levels good and we were among top in Europe for agriculture and had decent industry as well.


An argument can be made for both sides. Now, what do you mean by democracy? That word has such a lengthy and abstract definition that you need to give an example as to what you mean.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Molotov » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:57 pm

Opakidabar: You refer to what Oakeshott calls the 'mass man', or the individual manqué. Democracy places upon an individual's shoulders the responsibility for his own welfare, the welfare of his family and the welfare of his nation. A liberated individual is beholden to no master but himself. The 'mass man' is frightened of this responsibility, he would rather someone else guaranteed him his daily bread and left him with no other consideration. If, in a democracy, we are deprived of our welfare it is our fault, in a society that is not liberal it is the government's fault, the community's fault, or society's fault.

A good proportion of people are 'mass men', and so short-sighted they cannot see beyond the end of their own noses. This is perhaps one of the reasons why socialism, fascism and so on were so popular in Europe, and are even remembered fondly by some today. Personally I would rather take responsibility for myself, and be sure that my destiny and my welfare is mine alone to look after.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby TPD » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:19 pm

Opakidabar wrote:People do not value democracy high, one would choose secured and highly paid job in authoritarian nation rather than being poor in democracy.
Agree, disagree?


To a certain degree, yes. Democracy is a relative term anyway. It would also depend on what kind of restrictions the authoritarian nation would have but I'm sure you can find enough of those in a democratic nation as well. A matter of priorities and preferences.
I think there has been or was a strong tendency here in the East to dream of democracy and infinite opportunities but if you take the Ukraine as an example it's only natural that they'd choose Russia. Easier to get there (compared to the EU), better opportunities to have a decent jobs (in the West they'd be doing manual labour), no language barrier.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Opakidabar » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:40 pm

Mr.Yankees wrote:Now, what do you mean by democracy? That word has such a lengthy and abstract definition that you need to give an example as to what you mean.

Yes, I think I have to give definition that I use for democracy. If you think that democracy is not right term for phenomenon I describe, please give another term and we can leave "democracy".
What I mean by this term is society where you elect your leaders in fair elections. As opposed to society where election outcome (if those happen) is set up before the elections and elections is just a formality.
I know this might be very shortsighted definition of democracy but as I am not politics student I know no better definition for democracy and no better term to describe society with fair elections.

Molotov, I really liked your post. Interesting to read. I agree to 'mass man' part. However I still want to discuss some points, particularly this one:

Democracy places upon an individual's shoulders the responsibility for his own welfare, the welfare of his family and the welfare of his nation. A liberated individual is beholden to no master but himself.

Can I as an individual impact my nation's direction more in democracy than in authoritarian regime?
I can join the party (D) or join the system (A)
Can I as an individual impact my own welfare more in democracy than in authoritarian regime?
I can open my business according to rules set by democratic govt (D) or set by authoritarian govt (A)
Where is the democratic benefit? (I believe there should be)
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Mr.Yankees » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:04 pm

OK, I'll get back to the more philosophical debate when I have enough time to put my thoughts down. Now, to answer the first question you presented at the beginning of the thread: It depends on the person. I would, however, pick a highly paid job in an authoritarian state. While I love the whole concept of political representation, I know for a fact given the experiences I have had, that it does not satisfy the needs of the people. What I am saying is that given the two circumstances you presented (high paying job in an authoritarian state vs. being poor in a representative democracy state), the first has more upsides than the second. All of that is in my opinion. I can go more in depth later.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby JuliaAJA » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:25 pm

I would rather live in a society where I will always be suppported by the state over one where the state doesn't care about me.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Molotov » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:16 pm

Opakidabar wrote:Can I as an individual impact my nation's direction more in democracy than in authoritarian regime?
I can join the party (D) or join the system (A)
Can I as an individual impact my own welfare more in democracy than in authoritarian regime?
I can open my business according to rules set by democratic govt (D) or set by authoritarian govt (A)
Where is the democratic benefit? (I believe there should be)


I don't understand. The benefit, presumably, is that you are able to control your own welfare. In hypothetical tyranny A, you might have a nice job and a comfortable life but you are a serf and a slave, and you live at the whim of another. In hypothetical democracy B everything might be shit, but you have the freedom to lead your own life and the responsibility to improve it yourself. I would prefer the latter, always. Only an idiot wouldn't, by which I mean an idiot in both the modern sense and the classical sense of a man who does not vote.

For democracy to exist at all each individual must have some choice in who governs him. Therefore, his welfare is greater by that fact alone - where no choice exists, how can one possibly improve one's welfare?
Last edited by Molotov on Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Chazza » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:26 pm

Molotov wrote:I don't understand. The benefit, presumably, is that you are able to control your own welfare. In hypothetical tyranny A, you might have a nice job and a comfortable life but you are a serf and a slave, and you live at the whim of another. In hypothetical democracy B everything might be shit, but you have the freedom to lead your own life and the responsibility to improve it yourself. I would prefer the latter, always. Only an idiot wouldn't, by which I mean an idiot in both the modern sense and the classical sense of a man who does not vote.


Under this hypothetical democracy you have negative freedom sure but in most cases this means very little if you are living in poverty; the right to eat is pretty irrelevant when you can't afford a loaf of breed. In such a case it usually turns out that you will end up becoming a slave, only a slave to whoever will give you a job or whoever will help you out a bit, be that the state or a corporation. At the same time I'm not defending authoritarianism, having enough to eat if such food can be confiscated the next day by the state is just as bad. I do believe that a balance can be reached between the two, however the debate is all too often framed as a false dichotomy between them.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Molotov » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:31 pm

All other things being equal, then, the individual who lives in a democratic society has more welfare than the individual in a tyranny. If say, Man A was starving in Freedomland and Man B starving in Tyrannia, Man A at least has the opportunity through exercising his choice as to who governs to improve his lot, whereas Man B has nothing.

edit: Nice avatar btw Opakidabar, from the opening scene in Tropico?
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