Welfare more important than democracy

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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Chazza » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:43 pm

Molotov wrote:All other things being equal, then, the individual who lives in a democratic society has more welfare than the individual in a tyranny. If say, Man A was starving in Freedomland and Man B starving in Tyrannia, Man A at least has the opportunity through exercising his choice as to who governs to improve his lot, whereas Man B has nothing.

edit: Nice avatar btw Opakidabar, from the opening scene in Tropico?


The problem however arises when you question how much choice Man A actually has in who governs. To stand for election you will have to join one of the major political parties, gain the support of many members and climb up it to a position in which the party will stand you for election, to do this you will have to homogenise your views to that of the party and of its members, when the competing parties, on a broad scale, are already occupying similar positions everyone that hopes to stand for election will essentially end up in the same similar position. Then even if someone takes a more radical point and gets elected by the vast majority of his constituency they is sitting in a parliament of hundreds so Man A may have voted for them as he agree with how they will govern yet they will undoubtedly be silenced by everyone else they sit with. Is he really having a say over who governs him? And what if he doesn't want to be governed, he did not choose the political system that exists, he did not choose the idea of representative democracy or of the state. Additionally what if this is a heavily privatised state with anti union laws etc, Man A is probably starving because he cannot get a job or cannot afford to pay for food, he can vote all he wants but he cannot change the power held by capital and he will still be starving. So theoretically yes he does have more welfare then Man B but in reality perhaps not so.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Molotov » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:55 pm

No, definitely in reality he has more than Man B. Even if the choice is negligible, it is more than none.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Opakidabar » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:24 am

Molotov wrote:edit: Nice avatar btw Opakidabar, from the opening scene in Tropico?

Yes, it is :)

Molotov wrote:All other things being equal, then, the individual who lives in a democratic society has more welfare than the individual in a tyranny. If say, Man A was starving in Freedomland and Man B starving in Tyrannia, Man A at least has the opportunity through exercising his choice as to who governs to improve his lot, whereas Man B has nothing.

That is true.

Also, fact is people would emigrate from poorly ruled democracy to well ruled authoritarian nation. So you would say only idiots or so called 'mass men' would make such choice?

p.s.
But maybe problem is that those nations with poor democracies are actually oligarchies. And maybe the question should be oligarchy vs authoritarian autocracy?
Modern day Latvia ruled by our large businessmen pocket parties fails when compared to Ulmanis' pre-WW II regime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%81rli ... .C3.A9gime).
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Chazza » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:37 am

Molotov wrote:No, definitely in reality he has more than Man B. Even if the choice is negligible, it is more than none.


What about Iran? People can vote for President but vote for candidates chosen by the Supreme Leader and in any case 80% of the power is in unelected bodies. Is it even worth mentioning that they might have it marginally better than someone in Saudi Arabia, for me it's not as they still in a repressive, theocratic regime and in this in instance I'm supportive of those who called for a boycott of the recent elections not those who said vote Mousavi because he might be a bit better than Ahmadinejad.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Amazeroth » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:53 pm

Molotov wrote:All other things being equal, then, the individual who lives in a democratic society has more welfare than the individual in a tyranny. If say, Man A was starving in Freedomland and Man B starving in Tyrannia, Man A at least has the opportunity through exercising his choice as to who governs to improve his lot, whereas Man B has nothing.

edit: Nice avatar btw Opakidabar, from the opening scene in Tropico?


Not necessarily. If Tyrannia was ruled by a dictator who somehow really did the best he could for his people (moved by religion or a morality of his own), man B will have a nice life and his freedom. If Freedomland on the other hand consisted of two different nations - say 90% would be white, 10% would be black - all it takes for man A to be surpressed is for him to be black, and for the white majority not to care.


Nevertheless it is true that in a democracy laws are at least caused somehow by the majority, and not by one man alone.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Opakidabar » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:03 pm

Amazeroth wrote: in a democracy laws are at least caused somehow by the majority, and not by one man alone.

...which is not necessarily a good thing :)
(given IQ of median voter)
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Chazza » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:18 pm

Amazeroth wrote:Not necessarily. If Tyrannia was ruled by a dictator who somehow really did the best he could for his people (moved by religion or a morality of his own), man B will have a nice life and his freedom.


The issue with a dictator though is that they may treat you nicely one day but if the next day, for whatever reason, they decide to do the exact opposite, there is no way for you to stop them. Well to be honest the same could be said for the electoral system here, we make a few votes and a party may get 51% of the seats but as long as they keep party cohesion that equates to 100% control over parliament so if they decide the next day to start fucking everyone up then there isn't really much you can do until the next election, well nothing constitutional anyway. Of course there are more safeguards in a liberal democracy but that does not mean it cannot theoretically suffer from the same problem.

If Freedomland on the other hand consisted of two different nations - say 90% would be white, 10% would be black - all it takes for man A to be surpressed is for him to be black, and for the white majority not to care.


I agree.

Nevertheless it is true that in a democracy laws are at least caused somehow by the majority, and not by one man alone.


Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Amazeroth » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:21 pm

Chazza wrote:Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny.


I agree with the rest, so I'll respond only to that: of course it is still tyranny, but it is a bit more legitimate than the tyranny of one alone who goes against the will of the majority.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Chazza » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:27 pm

Amazeroth wrote:
Chazza wrote:Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny.


I agree with the rest, so I'll respond only to that: of course it is still tyranny, but it is a bit more legitimate than the tyranny of one alone who goes against the will of the majority.


Yes I'd agree with you that it is slightly more legitimate but I do think you enter dangerous territory once you start defending the tenants of majority rule, as evidenced by your 90% versus 10% example.
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Re: Welfare more important than democracy

Postby Molotov » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:50 pm

I think you have to separate 'majority rule' from 'democracy'. For a democracy to function, all voices must have a similar, if not equal, weight. The only real and functioning democracies we have seen in the modern world have been liberal and pluralistic, if we are to accept that this is the model of democracy for Freedomland then Man A is always going to have greater welfare than Man B. (Edit - Democracies may also be authoritarian, there's no dichotomy between authoritarianism and democracy, only tyranny and democracy.)

Chazza wrote:What about Iran? People can vote for President but vote for candidates chosen by the Supreme Leader and in any case 80% of the power is in unelected bodies. Is it even worth mentioning that they might have it marginally better than someone in Saudi Arabia, for me it's not as they still in a repressive, theocratic regime and in this in instance I'm supportive of those who called for a boycott of the recent elections not those who said vote Mousavi because he might be a bit better than Ahmadinejad.


Iran is unquestionably a tyranny. Clothes maketh not the man, and the trappings of democracy do not make a democracy.

Opakidabar wrote:Also, fact is people would emigrate from poorly ruled democracy to well ruled authoritarian nation. So you would say only idiots or so called 'mass men' would make such choice?


Does this really happen? I expect I could be wealthier in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, should I choose to live and work there, but I do not nor would I ever (permanently, at least).
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