Does Satan Exist?

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Re: Does Satan Exist?

Postby JuliaAJA » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:01 pm

Amazeroth wrote:
PresMusharraf wrote:
Molotov wrote:
That you think that the Devil is involved in events you might consider evil on this Earth. I mean, it's not odd, lots of people think like that. As an excuse for evil, though, it doesn't work. The Devil, if he exists in the form you described, is doing the work of God. Man is the only source of evil, as to commit an evil act it must be through choice, and we (unlike the Angels, fallen or otherwise) have free will and the choice it grants.

doing the work of God? How so? The Devil broke ranks with God. How then can he do God's will?


Again basically what Molotv said. It is called causa secunda and means that even though the individual is doing evil, God still planned that something good comes from it.
I wouldn't go as far as Molotov and say that the Devil is doing God's will, I'd say that even if the Devil broke ranks with God forever, something good comes out of it, and that's the freedom of choice.


I will go as far as Molotov.
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Re: Does Satan Exist?

Postby Molotov » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:51 pm

Amazeroth wrote:
PresMusharraf wrote:
Molotov wrote:
That you think that the Devil is involved in events you might consider evil on this Earth. I mean, it's not odd, lots of people think like that. As an excuse for evil, though, it doesn't work. The Devil, if he exists in the form you described, is doing the work of God. Man is the only source of evil, as to commit an evil act it must be through choice, and we (unlike the Angels, fallen or otherwise) have free will and the choice it grants.

doing the work of God? How so? The Devil broke ranks with God. How then can he do God's will?


Again basically what Molotv said. It is called causa secunda and means that even though the individual is doing evil, God still planned that something good comes from it.
I wouldn't go as far as Molotov and say that the Devil is doing God's will, I'd say that even if the Devil broke ranks with God forever, something good comes out of it, and that's the freedom of choice.


By the way, I didn't mean to suggest Lucifer or the Devil is doing God's will directly, as in, God does not instruct him to tempt so-and-so, or whatever, nor would Lucifer listen if God did. I meant, it's all God's will in the long run, and Angels have no freedom of choice, so Lucifer's rebellion must have been God's intention.

Amazeroth wrote:
Opakidabar wrote:Now I have another idea. God loves SM games with the people.
First, he makes up criteria that no healthy man can follow (which also includes calling God your only master ;) )
Second, he punishes those that fail in the criteria
Third, he sacrifices himself to save the same men that fails on criteria

I strongly believe that Mr Abraham God is simply not good. A big baby. Mr Jesus God is better. Maybe he grew up.


So you really don't have a clue? Never read the bible? Never read anything serious about that matter?


Isn't Opakidabar from a former Soviet Socialist Republic? Godless heathens, the lot of them ;)
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Re: Does Satan Exist?

Postby Opakidabar » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:36 pm

Molotov wrote:
Amazeroth wrote:So you really don't have a clue? Never read the bible? Never read anything serious about that matter?


Isn't Opakidabar from a former Soviet Socialist Republic? Godless heathens, the lot of them ;)

I do not see why Jewish mythology has to be taken more seriously than, for example, Latvian one. Just because of number of followers if only.
Officially though I am Catholic and I have read Bible. I knew more about Bible God when I was 5 than some people know in their nineties.
But truth is I never read stuff about interpreting Bible, except Catholic Church official. For me Old Testament is about Abraham God torturing his creatures. New Testament is similar in its message to Dao/Buddist tales, except reincarnation stuff that latter has and God to take all the sins of people that the first one has. At least supersticious powers do not feature in Dao tales, neither waking from death, God doing wonders, etc.. Or I have read that only in general.
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Re: Does Satan Exist?

Postby GreekIdiot » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:06 pm

Aethers wrote:I think it's more likely, based on the little I know of Satanism, that Satanists would think that evil is a kind of good. But thinking that God is evil is a bit less tortured in its logic.

(Personally, I believe in neither, so it's an amusing intellectual exercise for me.)


I dislike labeling people purely for their beliefs but anyhow, I can safely agree with you. Although I do fail at understanding why would someone believe in what the rest of the community calls as the purest form of absolute evil. Sorry.

Molotov, I've been inactive these last days, I'm sorry, and I semi-forgot our discussion. Okay, here goes. A person would logically believe in God because the idea of God shuts the door to the unknown, to something not quite understandable, to fear; right? At least that's the majority case as I have learned from experience. Why would people believe in paradise and heaven if they weren't afraid of what happens after death? Ok, maybe not fear, but uncertainty, doubt; it eats our guts. A person would walk past dead children and pray to God for salvation, hope, for love, for tenderness but would he ask himself why would have God permitted such a terrible act to happen, even by humans themselves?

To me, that proves how natural and materialistic things are (as defined by our senses and logic, I usually tend to believe the concepts of the universe are quite not understandable by us - Socrates: I understand nothing but the fact of my ignorance) since we are all part of a simple...well, call it cycle if you please. Point and purpose in our lives is entirely different. Fear, doubt, and all of these senses are real to us, and remarking the existence of God simply because he loves us and cherishes us doesn't mean he is not the malfunctioning product of our quest to fill our inner void of total doubt, darkness and failure to understand things.

Aethers, by "Dynastia" I meant nasty.
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Re: Does Satan Exist?

Postby Amazeroth » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:01 pm

George S.K wrote:
Aethers wrote:I think it's more likely, based on the little I know of Satanism, that Satanists would think that evil is a kind of good. But thinking that God is evil is a bit less tortured in its logic.

(Personally, I believe in neither, so it's an amusing intellectual exercise for me.)


I dislike labeling people purely for their beliefs but anyhow, I can safely agree with you. Although I do fail at understanding why would someone believe in what the rest of the community calls as the purest form of absolute evil. Sorry.

Molotov, I've been inactive these last days, I'm sorry, and I semi-forgot our discussion. Okay, here goes. A person would logically believe in God because the idea of God shuts the door to the unknown, to something not quite understandable, to fear; right? At least that's the majority case as I have learned from experience. Why would people believe in paradise and heaven if they weren't afraid of what happens after death? Ok, maybe not fear, but uncertainty, doubt; it eats our guts. A person would walk past dead children and pray to God for salvation, hope, for love, for tenderness but would he ask himself why would have God permitted such a terrible act to happen, even by humans themselves?

To me, that proves how natural and materialistic things are (as defined by our senses and logic, I usually tend to believe the concepts of the universe are quite not understandable by us - Socrates: I understand nothing but the fact of my ignorance) since we are all part of a simple...well, call it cycle if you please. Point and purpose in our lives is entirely different. Fear, doubt, and all of these senses are real to us, and remarking the existence of God simply because he loves us and cherishes us doesn't mean he is not the malfunctioning product of our quest to fill our inner void of total doubt, darkness and failure to understand things.

Aethers, by "Dynastia" I meant nasty.


I think you're being a little to narrow with your reasons for people to believe in God. I certainly don't believe in God because I'm afraid of uncertainty or death. After all, life still remains pretty uncertain for believers, and the prospect of maybe going to hell is much worse than just dissolving into nothing (or whatever atheists think will happen). Your argument that dead children on one hand and a loving God on the other don't mix would only be sound if there was no belief in life after death as well. If death is not the worst that can happen to you, if it is even the necessary process to go to heaven, dead children are only terrible for those who killed them (and those who miss them, of course), but not objectively terrible. Or, to put it a bit better perhaps, the fact that children are dead is not terrible by itself, what's terrible is the feeling of loss for those who loved them.
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Re: Does Satan Exist?

Postby PresMusharraf » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:49 pm

Molotov wrote:By the way, I didn't mean to suggest Lucifer or the Devil is doing God's will directly, as in, God does not instruct him to tempt so-and-so, or whatever, nor would Lucifer listen if God did. I meant, it's all God's will in the long run, and Angels have no freedom of choice, so Lucifer's rebellion must have been God's intention.


Again, an interesting perspective. It does go along with God's creation of the World even though he knew that man would go against him. I do disagree with something, however. I do believe (sadly, with no firm evidence to back me up) that angels did have something very similar to free will in the pre-earth era (so little is known or documented about angels it is almost impossible to truly know of what will they had before Lucifer's rebellion). It is my belief that God created Lucifer and the angels knowing that Lucifer would go against him, but I do not believe it was God's will for Lucifer to go against him. Instead, Lucifer, like Adam and Eve, saw huge potential for himself if he broke with God, so he did. War in Heaven. Lucifer falls, hates God for punishing him, takes his wrath out on God's creation.

And btw, Jessaveryja, calling me a silly Christian really pisses me off. So if you don't want me to go on a hate speech ramage, please refrain from ever calling me that again.
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Re: Does Satan Exist?

Postby JuliaAJA » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:58 pm

PresMusharraf wrote:And btw, Jessaveryja, calling me a silly Christian really pisses me off. So if you don't want me to go on a hate speech ramage, please refrain from ever calling me that again.


Sorry.
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Re: Does Satan Exist?

Postby PresMusharraf » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:02 pm

Jessaveryja wrote:
PresMusharraf wrote:And btw, Jessaveryja, calling me a silly Christian really pisses me off. So if you don't want me to go on a hate speech ramage, please refrain from ever calling me that again.


Sorry.

It is forgiven.
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Re: Does Satan Exist?

Postby Amazeroth » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:26 pm

PresMusharraf wrote:
Molotov wrote:By the way, I didn't mean to suggest Lucifer or the Devil is doing God's will directly, as in, God does not instruct him to tempt so-and-so, or whatever, nor would Lucifer listen if God did. I meant, it's all God's will in the long run, and Angels have no freedom of choice, so Lucifer's rebellion must have been God's intention.


Again, an interesting perspective. It does go along with God's creation of the World even though he knew that man would go against him. I do disagree with something, however. I do believe (sadly, with no firm evidence to back me up) that angels did have something very similar to free will in the pre-earth era (so little is known or documented about angels it is almost impossible to truly know of what will they had before Lucifer's rebellion). It is my belief that God created Lucifer and the angels knowing that Lucifer would go against him, but I do not believe it was God's will for Lucifer to go against him. Instead, Lucifer, like Adam and Eve, saw huge potential for himself if he broke with God, so he did. War in Heaven. Lucifer falls, hates God for punishing him, takes his wrath out on God's creation.



As far as I know, but I'm really not an expert in this particular section of theology, angels have free will, but other than humans they can't change it once they've made their choice - so angels decide at their very creation if they want to be with God or against him, and they stay this way. I think the reason why they are this way is both that they have no body but are pure mind, and that they always were in heaven (or hell) and thus did not have to find things out after another, but knew everything in the first place.
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