Political Opinions

Anything that is not directly related to the game or its community.

Re: Political Opinions

Postby Jacobin » Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:26 pm

Khaler wrote:
jethro wrote:You cannot be "pro-freedom" (i.e. anarchy) while at the same time being "pro-order". Just doesn't work.


Sure you can if you are schizophrenic. I've always thought there is something terribly wrong with people who root for Controlled Market and Ultimate Civil Liberties, as well as Free Market and Nearly no Civil Liberties. Only a schizoid can make up something as ridiculous as that in their head.


Actually, the People's Republic of China is more-or-less the latter ("Free Market and Nearly no Civil Liberties") and it seems to be working relatively well.
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Re: Political Opinions

Postby GreekIdiot » Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:28 pm

Ain't free market based on liberalism?

China's market isn't a free one. It's a government dictated one or in the worst case led by government employees, because they are the ones with the real money there.
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Re: Political Opinions

Postby IdioC » Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:00 pm

Mr.Yankees wrote:Americans are patriotic, warriors, never give up, we get what we want and we have fun doing it, we believe in democracy and will fight to the death to protect it anywhere in the world...


Forgive the parody, but:

Patriotic until you discuss laws about owning people, warriors in padding and/or helmets until the full-time whistle goes so you hit the bar, never give up sending troops to battles you're losing in the jungle, get what you want until the company goes bust and you can't afford it, have fun with superior firepower as it avoids awkward negotiations, believe in democracy until an Iranian revolution looks like it'll send more black gold than the elected assembly and fight to the death through nominated representatives to protect our interests anywhere in the world...

...but by heck, us limey bastards made exactly the same mistakes in a slightly different way when we had the world on a lead. We're just so disjointed about it because it's history repeating :P

----

As for my political opinions: I started off a Soc Demo but then made the CBP to parody everything I disliked in politics at the time. Now the arguments I had to think up for RPing the Cynical Bastardry Party just make perfect sense to me. Be careful what you try to justify...
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Re: Political Opinions

Postby Captain-Socialist » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:33 pm

Yes, you colonists must pay attention to us. Whatever the fuck you do don't don't do what we did, DO NOT FIGHT TOO POINTLESS GLOBAL WARS WITH SOMEBODY OF EQUAL STRENGTH TO YOURSELF!
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Re: Political Opinions

Postby Woxor » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:37 pm

I'm American and pretty liberal (by the standards over here, anyway). Since the big distinction seems to be between "social" and "fiscal" issues, I'm a social liberal and fiscally I don't know what to believe anymore. I've become a bit of a politics junkie over the last few years, so my opinions are mostly reactions to the idiocy I see all the time over here. If you ever feel insufficiently misanthropic, just head on over to the states and talk to people. I'm proud to be an American, because I truly believe America stands for something good in principle, but that's why I get all the more frustrated when the bulk of our citizenry displays a glaring lack of awareness. The words "DECLINING EMPIRE" seem to flash across my vision every time I hear about Sarah Palin, Joe the Plumber, NObama Tea Party, etc.

That's sad to me, not because I think that other countries are unable to uphold egalitarianism and liberty and such or that America does such a great job of living up to its own standards, but because I think America is supposed to provide a unique perspective that's subtler than the glittering ideologies we supposedly espouse. America is inherently built to stop the abuses power that arise naturally in human institutions and to alleviate the political barriers to harmony and happiness. We Americans are naturally inclined to believe that we can fix problems and right wrongs, and that's a naive, beautiful world-view that is dying a martyr's death in today's jaded, weary American culture. Ridiculous clowns on the right side of the spectrum give the impression that patriotism and belief in American ideals is at best idiotic and at worst sinister and dystopian. That's why Obama was the phenomenon he was; he was able to sound optimistic without seeming oblivious or disingenuous. To America, that was goddamn amazing, because we've been horsing around with a bunch of half-wit schmucks in the executive for about forty-five years.

/rant. I can't exactly list my political views because I think it's folly to attempt to completely codify one's beliefs, and the parts that can be codified effectively don't interest me as much as the overarching thrusts of history.
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Re: Political Opinions

Postby GreekIdiot » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:49 pm

Woxor wrote:America is inherently built to stop the abuses power that arise naturally in human institutions and to alleviate the political barriers to harmony and happiness. We Americans are naturally inclined to believe that we can fix problems and right wrongs, and that's a naive, beautiful world-view that is dying a martyr's death in today's jaded, weary American culture.


I have long lost hope that Americans like you, if you truly believe what you are saying, exist in the world, where good-old America beats the shit out of somebody who represents a hindrance to America's truly inherent leadership, the big old-fashioned corporate conglomerates. And in that path of success they seek, the rest of the world gets to pay your natural inclination of fixing problems and apparently righting the wrongs we infidels have cast upon ourselves. Because, yes, God bless America and nobody else. We've seen your beautiful world-views that as you say are dying a martyr's death in Vietnam, Hiroshima, Afghanistan and as of late, Iraq. If America was truly what you said, without the interests driving the war machine, then the hostilities in Israel would have stopped, Africa would not depend on fucking Bill Gates to water its bushes and no Turkish scum would play games in our seas.

But the US is the pure example that a player in particracy can follow if he wants to create a pseudo liberal world where the people think they lead their country, where people believe in that kind of bullshit, and where truly corporations rule the interest world and wage wars in expense of the patriotic people, who continue to believe in ideals of patriotism and the fact that America is the ever standing, fucking peacekeeping fortress of the world.
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Re: Political Opinions

Postby Mr.Yankees » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:47 pm

George S.K wrote:
Woxor wrote:America is inherently built to stop the abuses power that arise naturally in human institutions and to alleviate the political barriers to harmony and happiness. We Americans are naturally inclined to believe that we can fix problems and right wrongs, and that's a naive, beautiful world-view that is dying a martyr's death in today's jaded, weary American culture.


I have long lost hope that Americans like you, if you truly believe what you are saying, exist in the world, where good-old America beats the shit out of somebody who represents a hindrance to America's truly inherent leadership, the big old-fashioned corporate conglomerates. And in that path of success they seek, the rest of the world gets to pay your natural inclination of fixing problems and apparently righting the wrongs we infidels have cast upon ourselves. Because, yes, God bless America and nobody else. We've seen your beautiful world-views that as you say are dying a martyr's death in Vietnam, Hiroshima, Afghanistan and as of late, Iraq. If America was truly what you said, without the interests driving the war machine, then the hostilities in Israel would have stopped, Africa would not depend on fucking Bill Gates to water its bushes and no Turkish scum would play games in our seas.

But the US is the pure example that a player in particracy can follow if he wants to create a pseudo liberal world where the people think they lead their country, where people believe in that kind of bullshit, and where truly corporations rule the interest world and wage wars in expense of the patriotic people, who continue to believe in ideals of patriotism and the fact that America is the ever standing, fucking peacekeeping fortress of the world.


I will not say much since I am lacking time to make a long statement. My answer is very simple, both of you are wrong. Woxor, you claim to be "different" from other Americans; however, you wasted no time in criticism the Conservatives. You are no different from any other liberal. You criticize Conservatives and Conservatives criticize Liberals.

Yes, there is a difference between social and fiscal liberalism. There is also liberalism in foreign policy and in government structure. It is pretty much everywhere and they are all different.

Obama was able to win given his difference in "style" of campaigning. He is no different from any other liberal President when it comes to ideology. His campaign strategies, however, were magnificent.

I agree with you that Americans are becoming too entangled in the idiocies of the current social and intellectual structure in the United States. However, this does not undermine our culture nor our principles, it merely hides them underneath a cloth of lack of political and intellectual knowledge.

George, it is pretty clear that you are anti-American. That is alright, you have the right to your opinion. However, you have provided no evidence for your "accusations." To be honest, it is rather naive to claim that the United States goes to wars because corporations profit from it. Such statement is a fallacy. Just because corporations profit from war, it does not indicate that they throw us into wars for the sake of profit making.

I wish I could more into this but I am lacking sufficient time. It is truly a shame I can't elaborate on my point.
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Re: Political Opinions

Postby GreekIdiot » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:58 pm

Mr.Yankees wrote:George, it is pretty clear that you are anti-American. That is alright, you have the right to your opinion. However, you have provided no evidence for your "accusations." To be honest, it is rather naive to claim that the United States goes to wars because corporations profit from it. Such statement is a fallacy. Just because corporations profit from war, it does not indicate that they throw us into wars for the sake of profit making.

I wish I could more into this but I am lacking sufficient time. It is truly a shame I can't elaborate on my point.


I'll put it on stand by until you will be able to do it. :)

edit; or as they see in, well, american movies, rain check? (dunno if that's right)
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Re: Political Opinions

Postby Woxor » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:51 pm

I can't remember if there was a hard rule against debating in this thread, but if so, I'll be happy to move this discussion elsewhere.

Mr.Yankees wrote:Woxor, you claim to be "different" from other Americans; however, you wasted no time in criticism the Conservatives. You are no different from any other liberal. You criticize Conservatives and Conservatives criticize Liberals.

I'm not claiming to be different because I somehow rise above the fray -- far from it. I'm claiming that there are too many Americans with a limited perspective. Just because I choose sides in the fight doesn't mean that my own perspective is similarly limited, or that I am "no different" from any other person who shares some of my ideology. Anyway, I'm not so much trying to claim the high ground as I am expressing a complete intellectual alienation from many of my countrymen.

Mr.Yankees wrote:Obama was able to win given his difference in "style" of campaigning. He is no different from any other liberal President when it comes to ideology. His campaign strategies, however, were magnificent.

Candidates are more than the sum of their style and their ideology. If you weigh Lincoln, for example, on his ideology and style, you're not getting the whole picture: there is a vital human element that communicates the notion, "I am truly aware of what's going on, and I am prepared to do the right thing to address it." Being mildly against slavery and good at talking does not make you a good leader; fundamentally connecting with those who would follow you, making the right decisions, and communicating them effectively does. Where you see style, I see a human connection.

That's what America was lacking, IMO, because between Kennedy and Obama we had, respectively, an ineffective politician, a conniving paranoid, two baffled do-nothings, a Randian demagogue, his oblivious side-kick, a superficial smooth-talker, and a petulant half-wit. I don't know what the foreign perceptions are, but our president has a lot of power under the modern system, and moreover he has the peculiarity of being not a faceless elected assembly but a single person, thus drawing inordinate expectations of leadership. To have such a streak of mediocrity in leadership right at the time when the modern egalitarian consciousness is supposed to have taken hold (compare American society fifty years ago to American society now, and you'll see that we did progress somehow) did nothing to stop our civil rights progress, but it was terrible for morale, and it left us cynical and disrespectful of what government stands for. Obama simply spoke as though he understood our spiritual void and intended to at least try to live up to the standard we set, and he seemed genuine, even to all of us newly-jaded yanks.
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Re: Political Opinions

Postby IdioC » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:49 pm

Woxor wrote:I can't remember if there was a hard rule against debating in this thread, but if so, I'll be happy to move this discussion elsewhere.


Suggest splitting the posts into a new thread if the facility hasn't died off in phpBB version whatdeheckdisbe.

It's worth remembering - not to imply that it has yet been forgotten - that whilst Liberals will criticise Conservatives and Conservatives will criticise Liberals, criticism of one point isn't absolute opposition to a school of thought. I got the impression that Woxor was trying to take it from the middle and work to his point if anything, whilst conceding his captivation in the last election with Obamarama. It's rarely a black and white distinction (I should point out, no US Election reference intended), as much as people often try to make it a "with us or against us" thing whenever and wherever this Lib vs Con thing emerges. Just getting the "keep it clean" shot away early, nothing below the belt, 4 rounds, 8 second counts if you get a bit wobbly and we're using a cowbell.

Captain-Socialist wrote:Yes, you colonists must pay attention to us. Whatever the fuck you do don't don't do what we did, DO NOT FIGHT TOO POINTLESS GLOBAL WARS WITH SOMEBODY OF EQUAL STRENGTH TO YOURSELF!


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