Absolute, disgusting, nervebraking filth

[Molotov]

Why the fuck do you study Italian history?

Because he's a dago.

[Captain-Socialist]

Why the fuck do you study Italian history?

Because he's a dago.

On grandfathers side only, just think of me as a European living in England, it's easier than trying to pay attention to every individual aspect of my heritage (which none of you want to do, I'm sure).

And Sam, Italy invented Fascism, easily the most controversial and most attention grabbing ideology of the 20th century. Mussolini was admired by and influenced Aldolf Hitler, Winston Churchill, Franklin Roosevelt, Miguel Primo de Rivera, Francisco Franco, Juan Perón (Don't cry for me Argentinaaaa!!) Engelbert Dollfuss, Chiang Kai-shek and many many more 20th century leaders. It's also got the Roman Empire, the Renaissance, lots of wars and the glorious Risorgimento, so it's hardly insignificant in terms of getting to grips with European history.

Do you have a specific case in mind, or do you really just mean the general attitude of beating politicians if there were no consequences?

If I said "we all know where that attitude leads to" I'd mean the general attitude of beating politicians if there were no consequences, but as I referred to Italian history specifically I do have a specific case in mind. I was reminded very strongly of the Fascists and the Futurists when I read that "nasty" George felt "liberated" by hitting this cretin and said he wouldn't mind attacking politicians if their where no consequences. Now, the danger here is one day the time might come when George can punch a democratically elected politician and get away with it, and then you have the basic Fascist ethic code in control.

Don't get me wrong, many democratic politicians are assholes and perhaps many people do deserve a bit of corporal punishment (I often want to smash some fuckers heads against walls) but it doesn't lead anywhere apart from you getting bashed as well.

[GreekIdiot]

I was reminded very strongly of the Fascists and the Futurists when I read that "nasty" George felt "liberated" by hitting this cretin and said he wouldn't mind attacking politicians if their where no consequences. Now, the danger here is one day the time might come when George can punch a democratically elected politician and get away with it, and then you have the basic Fascist ethic code in control.

I was partially joking. Of course I wouldn't harm the politician physically. And that's not fascist ethic code, it's corruption.

[Captain-Socialist]

I was reminded very strongly of the Fascists and the Futurists when I read that "nasty" George felt "liberated" by hitting this cretin and said he wouldn't mind attacking politicians if their where no consequences. Now, the danger here is one day the time might come when George can punch a democratically elected politician and get away with it, and then you have the basic Fascist ethic code in control.

I was partially joking. Of course I wouldn't harm the politician physically. And that's not fascist ethic code, it's corruption.

How so? Last time I checked, Mussolini was all about beefing up the "corrupt" politicians and about how punching people was a valid form of political action.

[GreekIdiot]

In a democratic world where Mussolini's twisted thoughts are lacking in existence, corruption is the thing that helps most a man who freely roams around doing things without consequences. Times have changed. You don't have to be a fascist prick to act upon such cases, you merely need to be generous.

[Amazeroth]

And Sam, Italy invented Fascism, easily the most controversial and most attention grabbing ideology of the 20th century. Mussolini was admired by and influenced Aldolf Hitler, Winston Churchill, Franklin Roosevelt, Miguel Primo de Rivera, Francisco Franco, Juan Perón (Don't cry for me Argentinaaaa!!) Engelbert Dollfuss, Chiang Kai-shek and many many more 20th century leaders. It's also got the Roman Empire, the Renaissance, lots of wars and the glorious Risorgimento, so it's hardly insignificant in terms of getting to grips with European history.

Italy did invent the Italian branch of Fascism (and the word for it worldwide), not every other ideology also labeld fascist. Mussolini has influenced Hitler, sure, but he didn't create national-socialism. I doubt that he was admired by most of those you cite, and I know that he hasn't been admired by Dollfuß (who also wasn't a fascist). You could hardly say that the Roman Empire was an achievement made by Italy, if anything, it is the other way round. The Risorgimento wasn't glorious but pathetic, the only thing the Italians managed there (without French or Prussian help) was to conquer the Vatican, and even that only after several attempts. The only real significance Italy (not the ancient Rome) had (other than culturally) was being traitorous in the first world war, and ineffective in both of them.

Do you have a specific case in mind, or do you really just mean the general attitude of beating politicians if there were no consequences?

If I said "we all know where that attitude leads to" I'd mean the general attitude of beating politicians if there were no consequences, but as I referred to Italian history specifically I do have a specific case in mind. I was reminded very strongly of the Fascists and the Futurists when I read that "nasty" George felt "liberated" by hitting this cretin and said he wouldn't mind attacking politicians if their where no consequences. Now, the danger here is one day the time might come when George can punch a democratically elected politician and get away with it, and then you have the basic Fascist ethic code in control.

Don't get me wrong, many democratic politicians are assholes and perhaps many people do deserve a bit of corporal punishment (I often want to smash some fuckers heads against walls) but it doesn't lead anywhere apart from you getting bashed as well.

Even if I wouldn't call it fascist in particular, you're right there.

[Molotov]

The Risorgimento wasn't pathetic, Amazeroth. Garibaldi went to Sicily with one thousand ragtag men, and conquered the entire Kingdom of the Bourbons, destroying an organised state with a military and ending an old dynasty. The only reason he did not take Rome and the seat of the Pope was because of the quick action of Vittorio Emmanuel, who desperately did not want to piss of the Catholic French.

What was pathetic was the attempt at creating a functioning political system, a liberal Italy. Pathetic might be too strong a word, the liberals were besieged by problems on all sides, but still they entrenched a weak and inferior political culture in Italy that remains to this day.

To be fair Sam, Italian history is bloody interesting, but then that's true of most European countries.

Btw, Garibaldi was in many ways terrible man but unlike you CS and Chazza, I can admire a true hero of history. Nobody is perfect, after all.

[Captain-Socialist]

Italy did invent the Italian branch of Fascism (and the word for it worldwide), not every other ideology also labeld fascist. Mussolini has influenced Hitler, sure, but he didn't create national-socialism.

Did I say it did? Come on, usually I'd be the first to point out the differences between National Socialism and Fascism.

I doubt that he was admired by most of those you cite

Read more, you'd be surprised. Especially with Churchill, even I was shocked.

I know that he hasn't been admired by Dollfuß (who also wasn't a fascist)

Aha, you buy all that sound of music crap do you? The only country to offer military aid to the Austrians was Fascist Italy, and there was more to it than containing Hitler. Dollfuss was a never a declared Fascist, that's true. But if we exclude him then we exclude nearly every "Fascist" leader because none of them (apart from Mosley, who used both Fascist and National Socialist, then dropped both) ever used the word expect to hasilty add "of course we're not Fascists, Fascism is a foreign movement and we care only about our own nation of <X> but all the same Mussolini is a great man and uniforms and right-arm salutes are cool" etc. etc. What is "Fascist" about Dolfusss is Mussolini loved him to pieces, he was a Catholic Corporatist, a nationalist who believed in the mystic virtues of the Austrian peasant "volk" and he was a dictator who used tanks and aeroplanes against his opponents. He also (unsucssfully) tried to create a one-party state under his Vaterländische Front, and exchanged letters with Mussolini in which he compared Hitler to the Soviet Union, a thesis with which Mussolini would definitely had agreed. In fact Mussolini did, when the Austrian National Socialists murdered Dolfuss Mussolini launched into his most violent tirade against national socialism, in which he declared nazism the return of the Germanic barbarism which destroyed Rome (while as always he acknowledged the similarities to Fascism). Hitler's invasion of democratic Austria is a myth.

And here is one of Dolfuss' parties (Christlichsoziale Partei, yet to become the Vaterländische Front) posters. Note the Jew (though, before one of you people start another strawman, of course Fascism is not always anti-Semitic)).

The Risorgimento wasn't glorious but pathetic, the only thing the Italians managed there (without French or Prussian help) was to conquer the Vatican

Funny, last time I visited Italy it was a single state with Rome as a capital in which Jews do not live in ghettos as they did before the Risorgimento, and it actually happened to be a modern nation state. But it appears I'm wrong, the only thing the Risorgimento achieved was taking the Vatican.

And Molotov, I've seen Garibaldi's own trousers in Rome!

[Khaler]

of course Fascism is not always anti-Semitic)).

Well everyone knows that. Israel is Zionist and Fascist, the living proof of that sentence.

[GreekIdiot]

Hitler was also partially Jew, no? And just because he was truly insecure and afraid of Jews it doesn't mean fascism, from the moment it was born, was against Jews in general, meaning anti-Semitic. If you look it logically, the majority of Israelis are far right conservatives, they get high with constant war and the killings of fellow Palestinians and Arabs and they haven't elected any government that is not solely consisted by the right political assembly.