English devolution 'could save UK'

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Re: English devolution 'could save UK'

Postby soysauce » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:58 pm

J94CK wrote:English devolution 'could save UK', MP David Davies says: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-22826860

I've always supported devolution for England, and I find it an injustice that Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales have their own assemblies/parliaments yet England has to make do with just the UK Parliament. I also think it could make the UK stronger. It'd definitely make the countries in the UK equal rather than England carrying the mantle of the UK and the Scots in particular resenting the UK government for it.

'Monmouth Tory MP David Davies, chair of the Welsh Affairs select committee, said English taxpayers may "wake up" to the unfairness of the situation.' - I find that interesting. An MP representing a Welsh constituency and with Welsh commitments in Parliament is not only favouring English devolution but is also calling the current situation 'unfair'.

'basic unfairness is likely to fracture the union.' - finally, a politician who realises.

"One of these days, people in England, taxpayers in England, are going to wake up, realise that this is happening, say it's absolutely outrageous and we're not having it any more, you know, let them [the UK nations] go their own separate ways." - too true. I think federalism, where England is treated as an equal, would strengthen the union.

"If they don't, the conventional political parties are going to leave the field free to other organisations like UKIP, who frankly don't have many policies at the moment, who might seize that opportunity and be the party of English devolution." - Yes, steal UKIP's best policies, they are rather good.

'Mr Allen said devolution had been a success in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and he would like to see it applied to councils in England.' - Wait. He's not proposing an English parliament? *sigh* Local councils having more powers would be a disaster, they're already incompetent enough as it is.

I'd say that the reasons for Scottish independence don't apply to England, but we know what'll happen
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Re: English devolution 'could save UK'

Postby EEL123 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:14 pm

They could just hold sessions of the Commons without the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish MPs and call it the English Assembly or something.
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Re: English devolution 'could save UK'

Postby soysauce » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:47 pm

J94CK wrote:
EEL123 wrote:They could just hold sessions of the Commons without the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish MPs and call it the English Assembly or something.


Possibly, but that still suggests that England = the UK, when that's not true. I don't see why we cant have our own Parliament outside of London, that'd be nice. It'd distinguish England from the UK too.

I'm just glad that a MP has acknowledged that the current situation is unfair.


I wouldn't object to Scottish and Northern Irish MPs not being allowed to vote on Devolved matters in the house of commons, the problem is that England and Wales are a joint jurisdiction, while Scots law and Northern Irish law are historically seperate Northern Ireland is also a special case. The only grounds for a Welsh assembly is in a rather weak "We want one too" move.
An English parliament would require the definition of separate English and Welsh Law as well as a new court system.
The only reason I oppose an English parliament is that it would federalize the UK, The Northern Irish Assembly and the Scottish Parliament take on some roles of the Westminster parliament while the two co-exist for good reasons, the laws and histories of the two countries are vastly different. With the current situation Westminster is still the primary legislature in Britain. The reason for the Scottish parliament we must remember is that Scottish Bills in the Westminster parliament were of low priority and were being delayed and pushed back by other debates, it didn't make sense to have a sitting of 50/650 MPs for every Scottish bill in the house of commons and that would take up time needed for England and Wales, so a new Parliament was set up. While 50/650 MPs present for a minority of bills is unsustainable having 550~/650 MPs present for the majority of bills is easily sustainable.
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Re: English devolution 'could save UK'

Postby SelucianCrusader » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:07 pm

The UK could be federalized even further, you could have Cornish and Manx assemblies too. After all, they are cleric nations too.

Always wondered what the best solution would be for them if the UK broke up - perhaps they could become autonomous regions of Wales.
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Re: English devolution 'could save UK'

Postby seanrutter » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:45 pm

I don't see why we couldn't be more federalised... We could have an English Parliament, Welsh Assembly, Scottish Parliament, and the Northern Irish Assembly, and then a United Kingdom Parliament for whole UK matters. We could then have distinction between the devolved laws, and a whole UK Legal system as well. I can see that in other places it kind of works.. so in America, Texans are satisfied that they have their State identity, but they are also Americans. I think the issue with Scottish Nationalism etc, is the identity - at the moment people think you can only be one or the other, when in fact we have multiple identities. I am a Yorkshireman, an Englishman, British and European all at once!
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Re: English devolution 'could save UK'

Postby EEL123 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:12 am

Well, England is the UK (minus Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, as my suggestion would entail).
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Re: English devolution 'could save UK'

Postby seanrutter » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:48 pm

J94CK wrote:
seanrutter wrote:I don't see why we couldn't be more federalised... We could have an English Parliament, Welsh Assembly, Scottish Parliament, and the Northern Irish Assembly, and then a United Kingdom Parliament for whole UK matters. We could then have distinction between the devolved laws, and a whole UK Legal system as well. I can see that in other places it kind of works.. so in America, Texans are satisfied that they have their State identity, but they are also Americans. I think the issue with Scottish Nationalism etc, is the identity - at the moment people think you can only be one or the other, when in fact we have multiple identities. I am a Yorkshireman, an Englishman, British and European all at once!


I very much agree with everything you said, although you're the only person I know in the UK who sees themselves as a 'European'.


I think a lot of that is down to having a lot of European friends... I think it's cool to be part of a wider society like Europe, especially with such great food! :)

EEL123 wrote:Well, England is the UK (minus Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, as my suggestion would entail).


I disagree with that. That is perhaps what the issue is. England does not = the UK. England is 1/4 of the UK, (in political terms, not population). In some ways it would have been easier if upon the Acts of Union, they had just unified everything and declared the former entities of England & Scotland to be extinct. The reality is that there are distinct nations that make up our country, and none of them can claim to be = to the UK.
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Re: English devolution 'could save UK'

Postby EEL123 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:07 am

seanrutter wrote:I disagree with that.
On what grounds? Take the UK, and take away Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. You pretty much have England left (let's not get too hung up on the little parts like the Isle of Man). Therefore:
EEL123 wrote:Well, England is the UK (minus Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland).
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Re: English devolution 'could save UK'

Postby elryacko » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:17 am

This is like saying autonomizing Russia will save the Soviet Union.
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Re: English devolution 'could save UK'

Postby EEL123 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:37 am

elryacko wrote:This is like saying autonomizing Russia will save the Soviet Union.
That's a rather tenuous analogy.
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