Who/What influenced your political ideology?

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Re: Who/What influenced your political ideology?

Postby Molotov » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:35 am

Well, I'm not drunk anymore. Quite annoyingly sober, having been told off by a twelve year old.

I don't think I'm against you, Amazeroth (not in our principals, anyway), but you apparently subscribe to a rationalist ideology that is very similar in form to Marxism, except where the Marxists see freedom in collective ownership the neo-liberals (and you sir) see freedom in free markets, and your defence is so similar in tone to the various defences of Marxism, socialism and so on I've both heard and read, I just found it amusing.

Why is it that, for ideologues of any stripe, be they liberal or Marxist or anything, empirical evidence is not enough?
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Re: Who/What influenced your political ideology?

Postby Mr.Yankees » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:42 am

Chazza wrote:
Mr.Yankees wrote:I apologize for not keeping up to date with this thread. I have not had a chance to read what the current topic is but I want to answer to those who have previously stated that "Moderate" is not a political ideology.

Since many of you are skeptical of what I say, I shall quote a fellow colleague of mine- Dr. Jim L. Riley from Regis University in Denver Colorado. This is part of an article named Liberalism and Conservatism. I hope it will clear everything up right away.


Ok I've actually found that article, well actually I think I'm right in saying it's a part of 'Introduction to Political Ideologies'? Here he comments at the end;

First there will be considered what have traditionally been referred to as "moderate" ideologies. Following this will be the more "extreme" varieties and then an overview of unfolding political viewpoints that may evolve into full blown ideologies.


We then get your quote and then he talks about Liberalism and Conservatism saying they are moderate ideologies writing at the end "Their common features include rejection of radicalism".

So if I'm right here Dr Riley is not saying that there is a moderate ideology but that there are moderate and radical ideologies of which Liberalism and Conservatism are moderate and I'm guessing things like Fascism, Socialism will be spoken of as radical. So I guess you are either a Liberal, a Conservative or somewhere inbetween.


Actually, you are partially correct. He does say that Liberalism and Conservatism "[occupy] an important position in the moderate varieties of political ideologies" but he does not call them moderate political ideologies. The point he is trying to make is that Liberalism and Conservatism are both within the realm of moderate political ideologies. Basically, a moderate will be in between these two as opposed to being in between to more radical positions.

So, we get:

Far Left <<<Liberalism<<<Moderates>>>Conservatives>>>Far Right

A moderate in the United States is not a person between the far right and the far left but rather someone between Liberalism and Conservatism.

Dr. Riley does make the point that Liberalism and Conservatism are not radical political ideologies.

By the way, I cannot tell you why he wrote the article or how he used it. I am unaware of both those aspects of the article.


Molotov wrote:
Moderate Ideologies along with moderate political viewpoints may be correctly seen as occupying positions between the more extreme wings of the spectrum. In terms of the extent of power of the State moderate ideologies strike a balance between individual rights, freedoms and obligations and the coercive power of the State to mandate or prohibit certain behaviors by people. This "balanced" view brings forth various implications regarding governmental structure, electoral procedures, the rule of Law, economic concerns, and other important issues present in all organized societies. Likewise considerations regarding time help define the boundaries of moderate ideologies.

Change is inevitable in society, in governmental arrangements and relationships, in leadership, in public policies and throughout the political world. Ideologies of the moderate varieties seek change at a pace that enables progress to occur but neither so fast that the destruction of stability and order in society becomes more likely, nor so slow as to foster stagnation and status quo permanence. Clearly then, there is considerable room for disagreement and dispute over what is the proper balance in all of these concerns. These disputable arenas contribute profoundly to struggles among those who support different moderate ideologies.


My God man, this reads like a textbook for first years.

It's rubbish. Meaningless.

Regardless, it refers to 'moderate ideologies', not to a 'moderate ideology'. There being no ideology called 'moderate', as I've maintained. It's specifically American, introductory wank.


There is no "ideology." As I explained earlier, political ideologies in different regions are different. Again, Conservatism to me can mean something totally different to you. There is no "ideology."

The reason it is said to be moderate ideologies is because there are many different types such as leaning-Liberal, leaning-Conservative. "Ideologies" is the plural of "ideology."

And I said from the beginning that this applies to American politics only.
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Re: Who/What influenced your political ideology?

Postby Molotov » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:53 am

There is no ideology. What?

You didn't explain, Yankees. You talked wank. I'm sorry if I appear impatient, but frankly, you do little justice to our field. If British, German, Indian and American academics can discuss political ideologies with no misunderstanding, normative statements or cultural ambiguations, we - two graduates of the same discipline - should have no problem. We do, though, and I think it's because you're being silly.

Far Left <<<Liberalism<<<Moderates>>>Conservatives>>>Far Right


No.

It goes (if you're going to use the outmoded political spectrum thing):

Left --- Centre ---- Right

Socialist --- Liberal --- Conservative

A person 'between liberalism and conservatism' is not, necessarily or even incidentally, moderate. Thatcher was between liberalism and conservatism, she took the Conservative Party toward the centre (she made it more liberal). Was she moderate? Fuck no, she was as radical as Attila the Hun at the International Congress of Pacifists.

Dr Riley is wrong, anyway. One may be a radical conservative, a radical liberal, and depending on the socio-political context, conservatism or liberalism might be in themselves radical ideologies - in mediaeval England, for example, either would be. His piece read like something for A-level politics students, and my guess is it's from a textbook.

edit: There is no ideology? My arse.
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Re: Who/What influenced your political ideology?

Postby Mr.Yankees » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:16 am

Molotov wrote:There is no ideology. What?

You didn't explain, Yankees. You talked wank. I'm sorry if I appear impatient, but frankly, you do little justice to our field. If British, German, Indian and American academics can discuss political ideologies with no misunderstanding, normative statements or cultural ambiguations, we - two graduates of the same discipline - should have no problem. We do, though, and I think it's because you're being silly.

Far Left <<<Liberalism<<<Moderates>>>Conservatives>>>Far Right


No.

It goes (if you're going to use the outmoded political spectrum thing):

Left --- Centre ---- Right

Socialist --- Liberal --- Conservative

A person 'between liberalism and conservatism' is not, necessarily or even incidentally, moderate. Thatcher was between liberalism and conservatism, she took the Conservative Party toward the centre (she made it more liberal). Was she moderate? Fuck no, she was as radical as Attila the Hun at the International Congress of Pacifists.

Dr Riley is wrong, anyway. One may be a radical conservative, a radical liberal, and depending on the socio-political context, conservatism or liberalism might be in themselves radical ideologies - in mediaeval England, for example, either would be. His piece read like something for A-level politics students, and my guess is it's from a textbook.


No, it is not a textbook. It's an article he wrote (forgot where he published it-I know he did somewhere). Look, Molotov, I cannot argue with comments such as "Dr. Riley is wrong." It's your opinion after all.

In response to your first paragraph. No, I am not silly; no, we do not have to "understand" each other. Like I keep telling you, the study of politics has always, always, been a regional subject except International Relations, which I do not consider Political Science per se. If you want to pretend you know more American politics than I and another American scholar do, go right ahead. I am not stopping you. I know that sounds condescending and all but I assure you, that is not my intention. Take it as meaning exactly what it means.

Let me tell you something that is key for every political scientist: Nothing is written in stone. Politics is not an exact science and it contain many, many variables. There is no "the way" to explain something. (Hint: That's for the "political spectrum" you presented above).
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Re: Who/What influenced your political ideology?

Postby Darvian » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:41 am

To perhaps contribute and throw a piece of history out there that might bring a new context to the ongoing discussion, Manifest Destiny. I could easily be wrong but, given to reflection I can't cite a case as clear as the movement of Manifest Destiny in American history that was a purely ideological movement. Quite notably I am leaving out the Civil War as anyone who knows anything about it knows it was not as it is often said started over the issue of slavery. This became a vital if not the key component in the war later but it wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back, South Carolina did that. Though the little footnote in history books about Manifest Destiny does stand-out and always has to me. It was not an item that political factions specifically started or even facilitated; perhaps one ought think of it as a very odd moment of national populism rising up from the ground to find that greener grass out West.

I'd be interested to see both your takes on that issue in the context of a political ideological spectrum. The both of you being Mr. Yankees and Molotov but, of course any other comments on it would be just as welcomed.
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Re: Who/What influenced your political ideology?

Postby Amazeroth » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:54 pm

Molotov wrote:Well, I'm not drunk anymore. Quite annoyingly sober, having been told off by a twelve year old.

I don't think I'm against you, Amazeroth (not in our principals, anyway), but you apparently subscribe to a rationalist ideology that is very similar in form to Marxism, except where the Marxists see freedom in collective ownership the neo-liberals (and you sir) see freedom in free markets, and your defence is so similar in tone to the various defences of Marxism, socialism and so on I've both heard and read, I just found it amusing.

Why is it that, for ideologues of any stripe, be they liberal or Marxist or anything, empirical evidence is not enough?


Neither am I against you.
I would never argue against a Marxist and claiming that there was empiric evidence "because it didn't work out in Russia". I would either have to argue him by rationally showing that the theory itself is wrong, or by going into detail and showing concrete communist (according to Marx) developments and how they didn't work out as planned. You do neither - you don't argue on a theoretical level, and you come up with examples that show the downfall of some countries (not in this thread, but some time ago) in the far east, or you claim that the World Bank or similar organisations that go against the very idea of neo-liberalism itself, would be neo-liberal institutions. Apart from that, "you sound like a communist" is not really a good argument.
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Re: Who/What influenced your political ideology?

Postby Chazza » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:00 pm

Amazeroth wrote:Neither am I against you.
I would never argue against a Marxist and claiming that there was empiric evidence "because it didn't work out in Russia". I would either have to argue him by rationally showing that the theory itself is wrong, or by going into detail and showing concrete communist (according to Marx) developments and how they didn't work out as planned.


Sorry to hark on about this like a broken record but communism is not synonomous with Marxism, there is a possibility communism could work but not through Marxism.
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Re: Who/What influenced your political ideology?

Postby JuliaAJA » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:10 pm

Chazza wrote:Sorry to hark on about this like a broken record but communism is not synonomous with Marxism, there is a possibility communism could work but not through Marxism.


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Re: Who/What influenced your political ideology?

Postby Amazeroth » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:17 am

Chazza wrote:
Amazeroth wrote:Neither am I against you.
I would never argue against a Marxist and claiming that there was empiric evidence "because it didn't work out in Russia". I would either have to argue him by rationally showing that the theory itself is wrong, or by going into detail and showing concrete communist (according to Marx) developments and how they didn't work out as planned.


Sorry to hark on about this like a broken record but communism is not synonomous with Marxism, there is a possibility communism could work but not through Marxism.


I know. That's why I said "communism (according to Marx)".
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Re: Who/What influenced your political ideology?

Postby Chazza » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:18 am

Amazeroth wrote:
Chazza wrote:
Amazeroth wrote:Neither am I against you.
I would never argue against a Marxist and claiming that there was empiric evidence "because it didn't work out in Russia". I would either have to argue him by rationally showing that the theory itself is wrong, or by going into detail and showing concrete communist (according to Marx) developments and how they didn't work out as planned.


Sorry to hark on about this like a broken record but communism is not synonomous with Marxism, there is a possibility communism could work but not through Marxism.


I know. That's why I said "communism (according to Marx)".


I really should read thing more carefully :oops:
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