Should Palestine become it's own country?

Anything that isn't part of the game or its community goes here. KEEP IT CIVIL!

Should Palestine become its own country?

Yes
33
62%
No
15
28%
Undecided
5
9%
 
Total votes : 53

Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby PaleRider » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:27 am

Why should Palestine become a country? With the recently passed Israeli elections I think it's time to rub our eyes and look at the divide in a new light. Since 1947 when tiny Israel was declared to be a separate country as part of the UN Partition Plan, this area of the world has endured three major wars (Israeli War of Independence in 1948, the Six Day War in 1967 and finally the 1973 Yom Kippur War), it has seen two massive insurrections (the First and Second Intifada) and various acts of terrorism throughout the years. Outside of Israel-Palestine the region has gone through conflict after conflict after conflict. Revolutions and coups swept the Middle East in the 1960's, and since the late 1980's and early 1990's we've seen an astonishing growth in the number of Islamist movements from a revitalized Muslim Brotherhood to present day Islamic State.
I bring these up because they are only some of the daunting security factors that the Israeli people and leaders face when trying to protect their sliver of land in the Middle East. Always on the defense, rejected and hated by her neighbors (except Egypt and to a lesser extent, Jordan) and still traumatized by both the Holocaust and their baptism of fire in the 1940's when Israel became the nation we know of today. Today the mentality of many Israeli people and leaders is that if they do not stand up to threats against them, no one else will and relying on the charity of others rarely works out for the Jewish people. These are many of the factors which influence the Israeli stance on things.

Now I modify my original question slightly and ask as we look to Palestine: Do they DESERVE to become their own country? While one can make a heartfelt appeal on "universal" principles such as national self determination, the limited experience we have is not encouraging. Among the two major political forces in what would be a Palestinian country one (Fatah) is kleptocratic and corrupt, believing in nothing and standing for nothing. On the other hand (Hamas) the only real alternative is a fundamentalist Islamic movement with strong historical links to Iran, one bent on the destruction of Israel and her people and this movement is more concerned with enforcing archaic and near medieval Sharia based dress and social codes than in say keeping the water flowing or the power working. Palestine to date has only had two elections, which of course have resulted in nothing. The first elections made Palestine a one party state while the second elections (in 2005) brought to power Hamas which precipitated what we call a civil war. Hamas now runs Gaza like a mini Islamic State and remains more focused on lobbing missiles into Israel and making it ever harder to achieve peace. Meanwhile the corrupt and incompetent Fatah has continued to allow the West Bank to stagnate, their "President" ruling by executive decree, with no legislature and more concerned about picking fights in international institutions than in actually proving they can govern somewhat competently and thus show the world the positive aspects of an independent Palestinian state.

A peace between Israel-Palestine is a must and can go a long way in a region beset by endless war and terrorism. However this will not happen until the Israeli people feel secure enough to push their political leaders into such a move. And the Israeli people will not feel secure if they live in fear of missiles being fired on them, if they fear another Intifada. And the only way to allay those fears is to build a competent Palestinian authority which can adequately administer the areas already under their own control. And that cannot happen when the choice of leadership either comes from a corrupt Fatah or fundamentalist Hamas. Ultimately, in my view Palestine does not yet deserve to become a country because it simply is not one. What we would call Palestine is in reality a failed state. Somewhere above Somalia and most like Syria come to think of it. Gaza is ruled with an iron fist by Hamas, a group which hides weapons in civilian areas, which launches missiles at Israeli, thus making it far more difficult to provide for their people (as Israeli authorities, already skeptical of Hamas crackdown on potential supply routes for weapons). The situation in West Bank is hardly better under the corrupt, kleptocratic and inefficient government of Fatah, where President Abbas rules by decree, there is no legislature and a one party state where the party has taken over the state has emerged.

The peace promised by Oslo in 1993 is dead. Using anything made in relation to those agreements will in reality lead nowhere. Fixing the divide requires tackling the heart of the problem. A functioning Palestine must be built. The current PLO-Fatah-Hamas mess by be expunged and replaced by more competent administration. In my view the Trusteeship Council of the United Nations should be reactivated and Gaza and the West Bank should be put under the trusteeship of a group of neutral countries (Sweden, Switzerland etc) which can then begin building stable institutions upon which a stable Palestine can grow. The current group of corrupt and authoritarian leaders must go, either into jail or into exile/retirement. The PLO should shut down or be transformed into what the Jewish Agency is now.
Only when Palestine becomes stable, when both Hamas and Fatah either clean up or go, and when Israeli's no longer fear missile barrages can we restart peace. We have failed Palestine and Israel for too long now. The people of Gaza suffer while Hamas is busy launching missiles into Israel instead of trying to provide water and power. The people of West Bank suffer under Fatah's one party state and the people of Israel suffer comparisons to apartheid as they simply try to provide for a safe existence of their own.

Thoughts? Am I some what on point or am I just out in left field?
Political Affiliation~ GOP (US)
Pro: Liberal Conservatism, Paleo-liberalism, Chicago Capitalism, social conservatism, neoconservative
Anti: leftist, multiculturalism, Islamic radicalism
Currently the Zardic People's Party
Starring as Wiendonia in NS
PaleRider
 
Posts: 1374
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:26 am

Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby soysauce » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:39 am

:roll:
In memoriam ad perpetuum
To our Polish Comrade...
User avatar
soysauce
 
Posts: 1084
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 6:02 pm
Location: tir na n-og

Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby PaleRider » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:15 am

soysauce wrote::roll:

The most effective weapon the Palestinians could use against Israel to say to the world "let us finally have self determination" is to competently govern the parts of West Bank and Gaza Strip they do control. When I look at Palestine now I see a corrupt and authoritarian regime run by kleptocratic leaders in West Bank while Gaza is run by Islamofascists more concerned about killing Jews and enforcing archaic social mores than improving the life of their people. Not exactly the most promising situation upon which for a country to emerge. Giving total independence now to Palestine would only result in that country becoming a failed state somewhere between Yemen and Somalia.
Political Affiliation~ GOP (US)
Pro: Liberal Conservatism, Paleo-liberalism, Chicago Capitalism, social conservatism, neoconservative
Anti: leftist, multiculturalism, Islamic radicalism
Currently the Zardic People's Party
Starring as Wiendonia in NS
PaleRider
 
Posts: 1374
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:26 am

Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Siggon Kristov » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:29 pm

I don't even think Israel should exist, so that should answer the question for you.
Check out my latest Particracy project, and feel free to discuss it in the forums.
User avatar
Siggon Kristov
 
Posts: 3204
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:35 am
Location: Fort Karav, Kregon

Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Afrocentric » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:41 pm

Yes, it should be its own country and I'm surprised that supposedly grown ass men and women cannot put pride, religion and politics aside for a minute and do something that would more than likely lead to stability in the region. One side likes to build settlements and bomb the shit out the other and the other likes to use terrorism and and bombs as a way of retaliation. Both sides are just as guilty when you look at it from an objective point of view; both sides have/have had firery leaders who've liked to stir the pot, both sides have their radicals and their pacifists, both sides have their allies and both sides have committed atrocities.

If I was President, I would have done this shit a long time ago. The problem is the US does not put enough pressure on Israel to come to the table and agree to some reforms at the same time, the US does not make an active attempt to reach out to the leaders in Gaza and the West Bank, which makes them feel like the US is against them.
Image
Image
Image

Urban Party of Kirlawa, Kirlawa - Inactive
Democratic Reform Party, Talmoria - Inactive
Labour Party, Saridan - Inactive
Urban Party of Rutania, Rutania - Inactive

http://www.soundcloud.com/djtechnotikofficial
User avatar
Afrocentric
 
Posts: 2377
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:20 am
Location: Maryland / Rutania

Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Siggon Kristov » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:01 pm

Afrocentric wrote:One side likes to build settlements and bomb the shit out the other and the other likes to use terrorism and and bombs as a way of retaliation. Both sides are just as guilty when you look at it from an objective point of view; both sides have/have had firery leaders who've liked to stir the pot, both sides have their radicals and their pacifists, both sides have their allies and both sides have committed atrocities.

I hope you know that Hamas was strengthened by Mossad to destabilise Palestine by waging war against Fatah.
Check out my latest Particracy project, and feel free to discuss it in the forums.
User avatar
Siggon Kristov
 
Posts: 3204
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:35 am
Location: Fort Karav, Kregon

Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Darkylightytwo » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:16 pm

Ideally, I don't think Israel should exist, but it does,

to be realist, we can't oppose the state of Israel right now, but we can oppose the jewish (fascist) state of Israel. the same way we would probably oppose a united Christian states of Americain instead of the United states of America.
Darkylightytwo
 
Posts: 684
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:27 am

Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby CanadianEh » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:48 pm

I honestly don't know enough to make an informed decision/I approve but disapprove of an independent state. All I know about the Middle East is what CNN and Bill Maher tell me.
Kirlawa Liberals - Inactive
Baltusia Conservatives - Inactive
Rutanian Democratic Party - Inactive
Conservative Party of Luthori - Active

In all the states of created beings capable of law, where there is no law, there is no freedom -- John Locke
User avatar
CanadianEh
 
Posts: 718
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:22 pm
Location: Canada / Luthori

Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Siggon Kristov » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:25 am

CanadianEh wrote:I honestly don't know enough to make an informed decision/I approve but disapprove of an independent state. All I know about the Middle East is what CNN and Bill Maher tell me.

I'm Indo-Caribbean. I live in Jamaica. Over 90% of Jamaicans have West African ancestry, but my ancestors are from India. My Indian families came here less than 200 years ago.

Imagine if the British, who colonised both India and Jamaica, had set up a small settlement for Indo-Caribbeans, and invited me to live there. Imagine that, after I lived there, I tried to expand this settlement by demolishing the homes of people who already live in the surrounding area. Imagine my justification for this being that "My ancestors lived here, so I have a right to live here" while pretending as if the people there don't have a right to live there.

Now you may say that:
- I don't face oppression in Jamaica
- My issue isn't a religious one

You would be correct if you pointed those things out, so let me give you a more religious-sensitive case, while also giving you the opportunity to learn more about Rastafarians. They have similarities with the Jews.

Christianity dominated colonial and post-colonial Jamaica. Pan-Africanism was on the rise. Detached from their roots, some Africans wanted to form a religion that made them feel more in touch with African religious practices. It went hand in hand with the "Back to Africa" movement that aimed for a revival of African culture in a dominantly-African country. This wasn't a movement to literally go back to Africa (which is what makes this different from the Zionist movement), but some Jamaicans indeed took it literally, and were inspired by the Zionist movement.

Afro-Jamaicans identified Ethiopia as an African power, since it was never colonised (except for a very small period of time when Italy occupied it). Rastafarians have, since then, identified Ethiopia as their home, and have revered Haile Selassie as a great icon of African strength. According to their religion, all Africans originated and spread from Ethiopia, so they saw Ethiopia as the heart of Africa, instead of West Africa where most Jamaican slaves were from. What adds to the credibility of their belief, in their minds, is that studies suggest that East Africa is where the human species originated from.

Rastafarians were brutally oppressed in Jamaica, during the first 10 years of independence. They got a little more respect after Michael Manley won elections since a lot of them were involved in Leftist movements, but even middle class Leftists treated them terribly. To be a Rastafarian was a bad thing. I remember growing up (this is in the 90s, not the 60s) and hearing that I need to keep my hair low cut or else people would think that I'm "a Rasta" and they told my female cousin that she needs to comb her hair "to avoid looking like a Rasta" - being a Rasta was the worst thing in society you could be. Attitudes gradually shifted when tourists paid attention to our "Rasta culture" - it is only then, and after Bob Marley's music contributed to revolutionary poetry, that Jamaicans started respecting the 3% of the population that identified itself as Rastafarian.

So, just imagine if the Rastafarians moved to Ethiopia en masse and claimed that they originated in Ethiopia so they have a right to establish a Rastafarian state there. The justification for their Rastafarian state would be this claim of ethnic origin, as well as the Rastafarian history outlined in Rastafarian religion. It's just like a Jewish religious text being used as a historical document to justify the creation of a modern Jewish state, over a thousand years after the Jews left Israel. Some said they were forced to leave, by the Romans. Likewise, Africans were forced to leave by the European colonial powers. Whether Rastafarians wanted to set up this state in Ethiopia or somewhere West Africa, would it be legitimate if they treated the existing settlers the way that Israel treats Palestinians? Let's note, by the way, that Palestine wasn't the only place that the Zionists considered for setting up a state.

Is it okay for me - along with other Caribbean people of similar ancestry - to just move back to a piece of land where our ancestors are from, at the expense of the people who are currently living there? I would say no.
Check out my latest Particracy project, and feel free to discuss it in the forums.
User avatar
Siggon Kristov
 
Posts: 3204
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:35 am
Location: Fort Karav, Kregon

Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby CanadianEh » Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:14 am

Yes but let's keep in mind Palistine would be a really tiny nation with no economy and it would no longer receive support from Israel. They need to get some sort of political force going that could honestly secure political stability if Palistine were to be independent.
Kirlawa Liberals - Inactive
Baltusia Conservatives - Inactive
Rutanian Democratic Party - Inactive
Conservative Party of Luthori - Active

In all the states of created beings capable of law, where there is no law, there is no freedom -- John Locke
User avatar
CanadianEh
 
Posts: 718
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:22 pm
Location: Canada / Luthori

Next

Return to Off-topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest