Should Palestine become it's own country?

[CanadianEh]

The racial divide in South Africa hasn't bee a serious issue for over 20 years now, though I assume there is probably still a great racial divide.

[Siggon Kristov]

The racial divide in South Africa hasn't bee a serious issue for over 20 years now, though I assume there is probably still a great racial divide.

I'm not sure why you think that over a century of Settler Colonialism and almost half a century of apartheid would just stop being a serious issue after 21 years. Even if what you said was true, it's not the point, and it's not relevant to anything I said. Read to understand and stop reading just to reply.

The point is that the people of different races in South Africa had hated each other. The European descendants in South Africa had treated the Blacks horribly, and the Black South Africans had reason to resent them for that. It's not even as simple as those 2 divisions, because the segregation and discriminatory identification (like what was done in Rwanda by the Belgians) had caused resentment among various Black and coloured groups as well. There is a clear geographic divide in South Africa when it comes on to where people of different races live, as well as where supporters of different political parties live, so it could have been a split country. Instead of splitting up, the representatives of the Black majority simply promised that they would have a rainbow nation that welcomes and respects all races.

Amazeroth and I are talking about one-state solution versus a two-state solution:

If you have a nation with two (or more) ethnicities that have grown to hate each other over generations, splitting the country seems to be the easiest solution.

[CanadianEh]

(Ok sorry about my prior off point, point).

Anyways,
On a practical level, a two state solution would be a good idea but I see it as a last resort. If a nation cannot come together and put religion and ethnicity aside then a two state solution would be fine but it is really sad that it has come down to that seeing that many nations have put aside racial and cultural divides and come together as one, something I strongly support.

[Siggon Kristov]

Ok sorry about my prior off point, point).

What you said about South Africa... Is it fair to call it a point, or anything but plain nonsense?

Anyways,
On a practical level, a two state solution would be a good idea but I see it as a last resort.

You're trying to talk about what is "practical" while ignoring the fact that Israel will just ignore any border that is drawn up.

If a nation cannot come together and put religion and ethnicity aside then a two state solution would be fine

All the people living there don't make it "a nation" - so please specify what you're talking about. The combination of Israelis and Palestinians aren't a nation, just like Nigeria isn't a single nation. A single nation wouldn't have to put ethnicity aside. I'm not arguing in favour of ethnic homogeneity, just saying. And anyway, the Israeli state identifies itself as a "Jewish state" and has treated everyone but White/European Jews like second-class citizens, including Arab Jews that already lived there (who had to put up with their own problems like PaleRider noted), and Ethiopian Jews.

but it is really sad that it has come down to that seeing that many nations have put aside racial and cultural divides and come together as one, something I strongly support.

It's quite difficult to do something like that when millions of people just run in, claim they own the place your family has lived for centuries, then set up a state. This state then destroys your homes and infrastructure. You have no place in this state because it's called a "Jewish state" and you're not a White/European Jew, and it doesn't make sense to live on its outskirts because it will continuously expand until there is no space left for you. The Israeli state actively acts against the well-being of Palestinians. This is not an issue between random people in group A and random people in group B. There is a state there that does things that it shouldn't, and should be held accountable for what it does; ignoring that only contributes to the problem.

[CanadianEh]

Ok sorry about my prior off point, point).

What you said about South Africa... Is it fair to call it a point, or anything but plain nonsense?

It was a valid point yes, was it a valid fact? Yes. It was just off topic.

Anyways,
On a practical level, a two state solution would be a good idea but I see it as a last resort.

You're trying to talk about what is "practical" while ignoring the fact that Israel will just ignore any border that is drawn up.

Well the Prime Minister of Israel is now accepting a two state solution but I don't blame Israel if they don't give them much land after all it is their country for the taking.

If a nation cannot come together and put religion and ethnicity aside then a two state solution would be fine

All the people living there don't make it "a nation" - so please specify what you're talking about. The combination of Israelis and Palestinians aren't a nation, just like Nigeria isn't a single nation. A single nation wouldn't have to put ethnicity aside. I'm not arguing in favour of ethnic homogeneity, just saying. And anyway, the Israeli state identifies itself as a "Jewish state" and has treated everyone but White/European Jews like second-class citizens, including Arab Jews that already lived there (who had to put up with their own problems like PaleRider noted), and Ethiopian Jews.

Well that's why we need reformers to come in and try to push reform if that can't happen if it were me, I would leave that oppressive state. Yes you can put ethnicity aside in favour of total equality, I was not saying it was totally the Arab Israelis fault anyways everyone has the ability to be accepting the reason why some people are not is because of how they were conditioned.

but it is really sad that it has come down to that seeing that many nations have put aside racial and cultural divides and come together as one, something I strongly support.

It's quite difficult to do something like that when millions of people just run in, claim they own the place your family has lived for centuries, then set up a state. This state then destroys your homes and infrastructure. You have no place in this state because it's called a "Jewish state" and you're not a White/European Jew, and it doesn't make sense to live on its outskirts because it will continuously expand until there is no space left for you. The Israeli state actively acts against the well-being of Palestinians. This is not an issue between random people in group A and random people in group B. There is a state there that does things that it shouldn't, and should be held accountable for what it does; ignoring that only contributes to the problem.

I'm not ignoring that.

[Siggon Kristov]

Ok sorry about my prior off point, point).

What you said about South Africa... Is it fair to call it a point, or anything but plain nonsense?

It was a valid point yes, was it a valid fact? Yes. It was just off topic.

It wasn't a valid claim to begin with. Even if it wasn't a false claim, yes, it was off topic.

Anyways,
On a practical level, a two state solution would be a good idea but I see it as a last resort.

You're trying to talk about what is "practical" while ignoring the fact that Israel will just ignore any border that is drawn up.

Well the Prime Minister of Israel is now accepting a two state solution

He says a lot of things. Israel claimed to be okay with a 2-state solution before, but they continue to step into Palestinian territory each time a new border is established, and they continue to sabotage the Palestinian state so that their expansion is justified by random white people in the West saying that Palestinians need to be rescued by the Israeli state because of the idea that Palestinians are backward and Israel is modern.

but I don't blame Israel if they don't give them much land after all it is their country for the taking.

And apartheid in South Africa was okay, right? It's not a strawman argument, by the way. South Africa has criticised Israel for being just like South Africa during the apartheid years. Settler Colonialists had divvied up the land and told people where they could or could not go, and each person's citizenship was restricted to what the state designated as his/her "homeland" - the average person didn't have the right to go anywhere in the country he/she wanted. Movement was restricted based on race. Persons were citizens of their respective homelands within the state, but not citizens of the state itself. Land was redistributed. The native Africans were confined to the homelands I mentioned, as European settler colonialists defined the borders. Saying that Palestinian land is Israel's for the taking is no different from saying that Blacks' land in South Africa was free for the European settler-colonialists to take.

I'd love an explanation as to why Israel has the right to take Palestinian land, and I want an explanation that doesn't parallel something South Africa did under apartheid. I find it hypocritical that you claim to be in favour of a 2-state solution while you don't believe that Israel should be bound by borders and prevented from continuously expanding into Palestinian territory. Every time a new border is drawn, the Israeli state steps over it and expands beyond it. You say you support a 2-state solution yet you're now saying that Palestinian land is Israel's for the taking and that you don't blame Israel if they don't give Palestinians much land, as if the land was Israel's to give in the first place.

If a nation cannot come together and put religion and ethnicity aside then a two state solution would be fine

All the people living there don't make it "a nation" - so please specify what you're talking about. The combination of Israelis and Palestinians aren't a nation, just like Nigeria isn't a single nation. A single nation wouldn't have to put ethnicity aside. I'm not arguing in favour of ethnic homogeneity, just saying. And anyway, the Israeli state identifies itself as a "Jewish state" and has treated everyone but White/European Jews like second-class citizens, including Arab Jews that already lived there (who had to put up with their own problems like PaleRider noted), and Ethiopian Jews.

Well that's why we need reformers to come in and try to push reform if that can't happen if it were me, I would leave that oppressive state. Yes you can put ethnicity aside in favour of total equality, I was not saying it was totally the Arab Israelis fault anyways everyone has the ability to be accepting the reason why some people are not is because of how they were conditioned.

What if you were there before the state? Do you think it's that easy to leave, by the way? You must be completely oblivious to what's going on there. This is utter nonsense. Should people in Georgia just leave if Russia wants Georgian land, and successfully seize it? Don't you realise that Georgians being forced to leave would be a problem in the first place? Do you not see Palestinians choosing between oppression and fleeing their homeland being a problem?

but it is really sad that it has come down to that seeing that many nations have put aside racial and cultural divides and come together as one, something I strongly support.

It's quite difficult to do something like that when millions of people just run in, claim they own the place your family has lived for centuries, then set up a state. This state then destroys your homes and infrastructure. You have no place in this state because it's called a "Jewish state" and you're not a White/European Jew, and it doesn't make sense to live on its outskirts because it will continuously expand until there is no space left for you. The Israeli state actively acts against the well-being of Palestinians. This is not an issue between random people in group A and random people in group B. There is a state there that does things that it shouldn't, and should be held accountable for what it does; ignoring that only contributes to the problem.

I'm not ignoring that.

The utter bullshit you're saying hints otherwise.

--

You disgust me.

[Lionking]

A Palestinian state could have existed in 1948! but nooooo, that tiny strip that the Jews would have was a torn in the eye of the Islamic fascists (Yes Islamic Fascists, many Islamic leaders in Palestine sided up with Hitler and Praised Him). If Palestine should be a state according to many of it's neighbors, then why didn't Egypt and Jordan gave their independence while they occupied Gaza and West-Bank? Why nobody of the Arab World shouted Fascism and death to Egypt and Jordan during that time? The harsh reality is as followed; The Arab world gambled and failed miserably with their wars against Israel. Israel defended themselves and gained ground on their neighbors. That's war and that's life. The Arabs should look at themselves, as they are the only ones that are guilty for this current situation.

[PaleRider]

A Palestinian state could have existed in 1948! but nooooo, that tiny strip that the Jews would have was a torn in the eye of the Islamic fascists (Yes Islamic Fascists, many Islamic leaders in Palestine sided up with Hitler and Praised Him). If Palestine should be a state according to many of it's neighbors, then why didn't Egypt and Jordan gave their independence while they occupied Gaza and West-Bank? Why nobody of the Arab World shouted Fascism and death to Egypt and Jordan during that time? The harsh reality is as followed; The Arab world gambled and failed miserably with their wars against Israel. Israel defended themselves and gained ground on their neighbors. That's war and that's life. The Arabs should look at themselves, as they are the only ones that are guilty for this current situation.

Bingo. As I stated here before, the Arabs are their own worst enemies. Why was it so easy for Hamas to arise (with or without Mossad support as Siggy claimed)? Because of the sheer incompetence of the governing authorities. The PLO is a corrupt and morally bankrupt organization, Fatah is equally as corrupt. The PA is incompetent. Jordan actually did a fairly decent job governing West Bank until it lost the Six Day War and Arafat tried to overthrow the Jordanian monarchy in the 1970's. And everywhere else in the ME, the Palestinians have been let down by their neighbors. Kept in camps for decades. Israel has its own share of blame to take, but after 50 years in camps, well its time to start examining the host countries.

A two state solution is the only practical option that will even remotely work, if we are unwilling to let Israel simply have a free hand to settle the matter on its own.

[Siggon Kristov]

If Palestine should be a state according to many of it's neighbors, then why didn't Egypt and Jordan gave their independence while they occupied Gaza and West-Bank?

Yeah, they should have.
They're not really supporting Palestine, just opposing Israel for their own interests.

Jordan actually did a fairly decent job governing West Bank until it lost the Six Day War and Arafat tried to overthrow the Jordanian monarchy in the 1970's. And everywhere else in the ME, the Palestinians have been let down by their neighbors. Kept in camps for decades. Israel has its own share of blame to take, but after 50 years in camps, well its time to start examining the host countries.

I agree with some of the sentiment expressed here.

[MichaelReilly]

A Palestinian state could have existed in 1948! but nooooo, that tiny strip that the Jews would have was a torn in the eye of the Islamic fascists (Yes Islamic Fascists, many Islamic leaders in Palestine sided up with Hitler and Praised Him). If Palestine should be a state according to many of it's neighbors, then why didn't Egypt and Jordan gave their independence while they occupied Gaza and West-Bank? Why nobody of the Arab World shouted Fascism and death to Egypt and Jordan during that time? The harsh reality is as followed; The Arab world gambled and failed miserably with their wars against Israel. Israel defended themselves and gained ground on their neighbors. That's war and that's life. The Arabs should look at themselves, as they are the only ones that are guilty for this current situation.

And what we see here ladies and gentlemen, is the unbelievably warped and downright false reading on Middle East history that has resulted in morons across the globe supporting poor, victimised Israel against those evil fascist Arab aggressors.