Should Palestine become it's own country?

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Should Palestine become its own country?

Yes
33
62%
No
15
28%
Undecided
5
9%
 
Total votes : 53

Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Farsun » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:14 am

SelucianCrusader wrote:Word. Actually when the zionist pioneers came and made a garden out of the desert (which made the Arab population sky-rocket), they called one of their newspapers the ”Palestine Post”. :D

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I mean, in reality neither of them have claim on the land. Its been proven that the Jews come from an area around the Caucasus and migrated there...but it isn't a problem of ancestral claim of the land. If we were going with that argument, most native countries would lose swathes of land. I find it ironic that either side claims they have ancestral claim to the land and that the US and other countries support that because quite frankly, its bullshit.

What I have a problem with is planting a state (solely based on a religion) that was relatively disliked by the Arabs in the Post-World War II world (Read Nazi's and Arab Nationalist/Islamic Radicals) because some Jewish Baron in the UK wanted it. If anyone has ever denied that things are planned, then you are a fool. Israel was planted there because the UK and France knew the world was pushing towards colonization and needed to gain a foothold there in the future, the US realized that and decided that in order to help the Jews out they should sponsor it.

Churchill disliked the idea and knew it would cause problems, Baron Rothschild went to the US and told them about it, a ton of Jews began migrating from Europe to the US and began to bring their wealth with them and their culture. It almost caused a bitter divide between the US and the UK. Almost a war in some circles believe it or not. At the risk of sounding like an anti-Semite (which I am not given my background) it has nothing to do with the Jews but everything to do with geopolitical strategy that leading people (who happened to be Jewish) pushed.

Oh to boot, for anyone who loves interesting facts, Sharia Courts were not the first religious courts set up anywhere, it was the Jews and they in fact exist today.
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Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Kubrick » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:14 am

One of the better things you posted here the past few years, Farsun, in essence I fully agree with it. I also think that the Israel/Palestine thing will never be resolved, placing Israel there was a mistake on hindsight. It's very good that the Jewish people have their own country but the entire situation is a mess.
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Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Farsun » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:09 pm

Kubrick wrote:One of the better things you posted here the past few years, Farsun, in essence I fully agree with it. I also think that the Israel/Palestine thing will never be resolved, placing Israel there was a mistake on hindsight. It's very good that the Jewish people have their own country but the entire situation is a mess.


100%. I agree that after the scale of what been done to them, even prior to the Holocaust warranted a place for them to be. Quite frankly, most other nations usually put them somewhere. The Russian Empire did, the German Empire struggled with it's rampant anti-Antisemitism even before the National Socialist, most states helped put the Jews somewhere because quite honestly...no one liked them.
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Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Polites » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:25 pm

Farsun wrote:I mean, in reality neither of them have claim on the land. Its been proven that the Jews come from an area around the Caucasus and migrated there...but it isn't a problem of ancestral claim of the land. If we were going with that argument, most native countries would lose swathes of land. I find it ironic that either side claims they have ancestral claim to the land and that the US and other countries support that because quite frankly, its bullshit.


I think there's some difference between an ancestral claim to a land dating back 2000 years ago, and continuous centuries-long presence. Also, this is literally the first time I hear the Caucasus thing, could you elaborate? Unless you're referring to the Khazars (who are not, in fact, the ancestors of most Ashkenazim as some anti-Semites claim). Either way, it's a good thing Jews got to have their own country, but it is really unfortunate and unfair that this came at the expense of the native population. And while I sympathize with the idea that after all those centuries of persecution a homeland was warranted, the Jews were certainly not the only ethnic group in that position. Nobody is seriously arguing for a Roma homeland, for example, and the Roma people not only had an equally shitty history, both before the Holocaust (c. 500 years of slavery in the Romanian Principalities, forceful expulsions, mass killings, forceful assimilation, etc.) and during (the Porajmos), but anti-Roma discrimination remains frightfully common and mainstream throughout Europe even today.
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Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Polites » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:29 pm

Autokrator15 wrote:And bigoted? I dont come to this conclusion without thought. Where in history, and please do spare me your insults where you will resort to because you will find it not, has there been a Palestinian nation, a Palestinian state and have the Arabs in the region been united as one nationality?


Informed bigotry is still bigotry, especially if backed by non-sequiturs. The fact that there has never been an exclusively Palestinian Arab polity before is utterly irrelevant to the issue of Palestinian independence, otherwise half of the states today would have no right to exist. Equally irrelevant is the etymology of the word.
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Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Farsun » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:39 pm

Polites wrote:
Farsun wrote:I mean, in reality neither of them have claim on the land. Its been proven that the Jews come from an area around the Caucasus and migrated there...but it isn't a problem of ancestral claim of the land. If we were going with that argument, most native countries would lose swathes of land. I find it ironic that either side claims they have ancestral claim to the land and that the US and other countries support that because quite frankly, its bullshit.


I think there's some difference between an ancestral claim to a land dating back 2000 years ago, and continuous centuries-long presence. Also, this is literally the first time I hear the Caucasus thing, could you elaborate? Unless you're referring to the Khazars (who are not, in fact, the ancestors of most Ashkenazim as some anti-Semites claim). Either way, it's a good thing Jews got to have their own country, but it is really unfortunate and unfair that this came at the expense of the native population. And while I sympathize with the idea that after all those centuries of persecution a homeland was warranted, the Jews were certainly not the only ethnic group in that position. Nobody is seriously arguing for a Roma homeland, for example, and the Roma people not only had an equally shitty history, both before the Holocaust (c. 500 years of slavery in the Romanian Principalities, forceful expulsions, mass killings, forceful assimilation, etc.) and during (the Porajmos), but anti-Roma discrimination remains frightfully common and mainstream throughout Europe even today.


It was a study done by John's Hopkins that discussed the DNA of Jews and the different types, I'll dig it up but you should be able to search it.

I agree, I mean, but we have to remember that Israel was probably done for geopolitical reasons far from religious or Holocaust-reasons.
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Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Autokrator15 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:22 am

Autokrator15 wrote:
MichaelReilly wrote:
Autokrator15 wrote:I will not recognise the "palestinian" ethnicity


Good. I'm sure that bigoted and narrow minded view will help to solve the entire issue then.

You choosing to 'recognise' them or not doesn't make them any less of the ethnic group that they already are.


They arent an ethnic group. They are Arabs, they are as Arab. They speak Arabic, they share a common culture. There is no ethnicity linked to it seeing there has never been an Palestinian nation nor a state nor a union of their peoples. They were divided in tribes. Technicly you cant speak of a seperate ethnicty nor nationality when it concerns them.

And bigoted? I dont come to this conclusion without thought. Where in history, and please do spare me your insults where you will resort to because you will find it not, has there been a Palestinian nation, a Palestinian state and have the Arabs in the region been united as one nationality?


Still waiting Michael, and just give up because we both know that you cant find it.

Polites wrote:
Autokrator15 wrote:And bigoted? I dont come to this conclusion without thought. Where in history, and please do spare me your insults where you will resort to because you will find it not, has there been a Palestinian nation, a Palestinian state and have the Arabs in the region been united as one nationality?


Informed bigotry is still bigotry, especially if backed by non-sequiturs. The fact that there has never been an exclusively Palestinian Arab polity before is utterly irrelevant to the issue of Palestinian independence, otherwise half of the states today would have no right to exist. Equally irrelevant is the etymology of the word.


I'm not a bigot. And they want a nation state, they claim the land for their nation, which is unexistant. The Arabs were different tribes that sold the land to the jews for ridiciously high prices btw and there were plans BY the allies AND the Arabs to unite the Middle-East and create a Pan-Arabic nation and allow the Jews to come home and give them ALL of Israel-Palestine. Did you know that? It was a promised to both by the British in return for revolting against the Ottomans!

Secondly after the Palestinian Arabs (Arabs of different tribes living in the province called Palestine, lets make it clear NO ethnicity) threw a hissy fit the region for the Palestinians was to be Jordan whilest the Jews would get ''Palestine''.

Moving on, I have argued that they dont deserve it for other causes aswel. One, their anti-semite stance and their lying about the wish for peace. And how can we grant them their own state? They worked together with terrorists of Hamas who ARE NOT liberation fighters, they specificly said that they DONT want a Palestinian state but a pan-Arabic Islamic state. Then on the defense of Israel, the strip of land that is to be for the Jewish State of Israel is too small to defend, if the Arabs dont concent and specificly agree to demilitarisation then this peace will never happen. Lets hear you about this instead of only nitpicking one of my arguments.

Secondly putting the Jews there is not the biggest mistake we made, the Arabs have enough land.
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Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Polites » Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:55 pm

Autokrator15 wrote:I'm not a bigot. And they want a nation state, they claim the land for their nation, which is unexistant. The Arabs were different tribes that sold the land to the jews for ridiciously high prices btw and there were plans BY the allies AND the Arabs to unite the Middle-East and create a Pan-Arabic nation and allow the Jews to come home and give them ALL of Israel-Palestine. Did you know that? It was a promised to both by the British in return for revolting against the Ottomans! Secondly after the Palestinian Arabs (Arabs of different tribes living in the province called Palestine, lets make it clear NO ethnicity) threw a hissy fit the region for the Palestinians was to be Jordan whilest the Jews would get ''Palestine''. Moving on, I have argued that they dont deserve it for other causes aswel. One, their anti-semite stance and their lying about the wish for peace. And how can we grant them their own state? They worked together with terrorists of Hamas who ARE NOT liberation fighters, they specificly said that they DONT want a Palestinian state but a pan-Arabic Islamic state. Then on the defense of Israel, the strip of land that is to be for the Jewish State of Israel is too small to defend, if the Arabs dont concent and specificly agree to demilitarisation then this peace will never happen. Lets hear you about this instead of only nitpicking one of my arguments.Secondly putting the Jews there is not the biggest mistake we made, the Arabs have enough land.


Okay, there's several arguments you're making here, so I'll try to answer them one by one:

1. "their nation, which is unexistant", "The Arabs were different tribes ", "Arabs of different tribes living in the province called Palestine, lets make it clear NO ethnicity", "the Arabs have enough land"

This used to be a fairly common Zionist argument, but I haven't seen it used much lately. What you seem to be suggesting is that Arabs comprise a single nation/ethnicity, stretching from Mauritania to Iraq, and that there is no distinct Palestinian nation/ethnicity, while only a small portion of that vast land, the territory between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, belongs to the Jewish people. The so-called "Palestinians" then, like all other Arabs, have plenty of other land to settle in.

There's several flaws in this argument. Firstly, it ignores the vast cultural and even religious differences that exist between the numerous peoples that are collectively known as Arabs, not to mention the linguistic differences in spite of their shared official language (Modern Standard Arabic). Palestinian Arabs are not Lebanese, Syrians, or Jordanians any more than they are Iraqis or Egyptians. There's an anecdote that says that Zionists are the only Pan-Arabists still standing. Secondly, while nationalism as currently understood is a fairly recent idea (born in 19th century Europe) and Palestinian nationalism and a distinct Palestinian identity are even newer, the exact same thing could be said of Jewish nationalism, aka Zionism. Just because a certain identity is recent doesn't make it less valid. Thirdly, I don't see why it matters in the first place whether Palestinians are a separate nation/ethnicity or not - it's not really necessary to have a nation to have a state, or vice versa.

2. "there were plans BY the allies AND the Arabs to unite the Middle-East and create a Pan-Arabic nation and allow the Jews to come home and give them ALL of Israel-Palestine", "It was a promised to both by the British in return for revolting against the Ottomans"

There's some truth in this argument, but it is not fully accurate. Firstly, Emir Faisal, the guy who agreed with both the Arab Revolt and the creation of an Arab state in Greater Syria, and agreed to the ideas of the Zionists at the time, was not from Palestine or anywhere else in ash-Sham, and was never elected or otherwise recognized as any kind of leader of the Palestinian Arabs, so he didn't have the power to make decisions on the latter's behalf. Secondly, his approval for the plan of encouraging Jewish immigration into the Holy Land was conditional upon the eventual creation of a united Arab Kingdom, which never came to be. Thirdly, the Allies made a number of conflicting promises, many of which they did not keep (see the Sykes–Picot Agreement). Lastly, how is this relevant to Palestinian statehood anyway?

3. "the Palestinian Arabs [...] threw a hissy fit the region for the Palestinians was to be Jordan whilest the Jews would get ''Palestine''"

I assume you are referring either to the United Nations Partition Plan or to the three state solution, because I don't know of any internationally agreed solution that would place all of Palestine under Jewish control. The former was a fairly reasonable starting point, but it never came to be. If you're saying that its rejection by the Arabs was a mistake, I agree, and for that matter the Resolution was used by the PLO as the legal basis for Palestinian statehood. If you're referring to the latter, that would simply go against the wishes of both the local population (West Bankers and Gazans aren't keen on joining Jordan & Egypt, and the two states aren't keen on granting them their own citizenship).

4. "their anti-semite stance and their lying about the wish for peace", "they worked together with terrorists of Hamas"

Broad sweeping statements like these are why people accuse you of bigotry. In any case, if the degree of tolerance exhibited by a people is taken as a pre-condition for statehood, half of the world's states would be abolished. And the fact that Hamas enjoys a degree of popularity among Palestinians is equally irrelevant; many other peoples have had a history of supporting/voting for extremist or violent movements, and that should not mean that their states should be abolished.

There are several legitimate arguments one can make against Palestinian statehood, but the rather silly one that Palestinians don't exist is not one of them.

Just out of curiosity, since you've made your opposition to the two-state solution clear, what other solution would you see to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
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Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby Autokrator15 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:35 pm

I will respond to all of your arguments after these annoying tests I have tomorrow. I must say you put some effort into it. But to answer your question which is rather short so easy to reply to (for which Im grateful btw):

I believe the Jews and (for the sake of argument lets call them by the non-existing ethnicity ''Palestinians'' because its easier and internationaly accepted) Palestinians should live in one nation called Israel in which the Jews and Palestinians should coexist but the Palestinians should gain large autonomy in the West bank. This would solve the issue mid-way between the one and two state solutions, would give the palestinians acces to the riches and wealth that the other muslims and peoples have enjoyed whilest living in Israel. It would solve the common defense problem and could slowly mend the hatred between arabs and jews.
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Re: Should Palestine become it's own country?

Postby SelucianCrusader » Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:36 pm

Autokrator15 wrote:I will respond to all of your arguments after these annoying tests I have tomorrow. I must say you put some effort into it. But to answer your question which is rather short so easy to reply to (for which Im grateful btw):

I believe the Jews and (for the sake of argument lets call them by the non-existing ethnicity ''Palestinians'' because its easier and internationaly accepted) Palestinians should live in one nation called Israel in which the Jews and Palestinians should coexist but the Palestinians should gain large autonomy in the West bank. This would solve the issue mid-way between the one and two state solutions, would give the palestinians acces to the riches and wealth that the other muslims and peoples have enjoyed whilest living in Israel. It would solve the common defense problem and could slowly mend the hatred between arabs and jews.

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You are way to nice. Stop the cuddling. Whenever I hear people wanting to give the "Palestinians" (arab ethnic nationalists who seek to create a state through ethnic cleansing of Jews) more privileges while murdering Jews in the same way as they have done since before the state of Israel, I think of Croatia and Opertaion Oluja 1995, when they were coming to take back the serb-occupied areas with NATO support. The Serbs had done terrible things, like the Vukovar massacre, and knew that they were in big sh*t for what they have done. So they ran en-masse to Serbia, 200,000 people in 2-3 days, and there was almost no blod spilled.

Of course no one cared about their plight since they were Serbs and Christians, however the signal sent to them that they were in big trouble for their crimes could probably not have been sent by Israel or any civilized country to people like "Palestinians", the signal is more like "here comes the welfare money". The Israeli taxpayers pays for gasoline and healthcare for Palestinians who constantly try to murder them. It's better to have a Jewish state that is hated by the world, than an Auschwitz that is loved by it. Even President Bibi could do well to man up a bit concerning these policies, as could every western country when dealing with similar issues.
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