Greece and the Eurozone

Anything that is not directly related to the game or its community.

SHOULD the Greek people vote yea or nay on the referendum?

Yea
7
44%
Nay
9
56%
 
Total votes : 16

Greece and the Eurozone

Postby PaleRider » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:10 am

As many of us fined tuned global citizens know, there is an increasingly bombastic showdown going down in Greece and the EU over the rules, and responsibilities of members of the Eurozone. Naturally, since we haven't yet started a thread where we start flinging poo at each other over the subject I am going at it.

In my HUMBLE opinion, both sides are at fault with Greece having a bit more blame. Reckless spending and borrowing drove Greece to this crisis and no one bares that blame but the Greeks. And instead of engaging in liberalizing reforms, the leadership of Greece has subjected the country to reckless austerity which has brought humiliation and economic ruin to the country. Yet the EU leadership and creditors bare some blame as well. Austerity was pushed too hard too fast, no breathing room was allowed for Greece, and any proposal to restructure debt or add in debt forgiveness was never seriously considered.
Ultimately i feel that Greece should stay in the Eurozone and that there should be greater discussion of debt forgiveness for Greece. But Greece should NOT get off scot free. They need to enact serious reforms to liberalize markets, reform public administration and do their part to rejuvenate their economy and get their spending under control.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/2 ... c30b6f1709
http://news.sky.com/story/1513073/greec ... referendum
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Re: Greece and the Eurozone

Postby Darkylightytwo » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:44 am

There is no need to seek cure where there is no cure, like, liberalization of the markets.

The problem is very old, even the first war between Athena and Sparta was caused by taxes, and Greek don't believe in the state, having who take less responsibility will just reinforce the bad perception the greek have of their own state.

Because Greek don't believe in the state, they don't pay their taxes.
I found this in the business insider : http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is- ... lem-2015-2
Look at this, apparently, the average pay for several profession is lower then their debt paiement ? how can you pay 1700 Euro in debt ? if you gain 1500 Euro ? The answer is that you hide money, that is the problem, solve fiscal evasions, no more debt, no more austerity, Pushing right-wing free market agenda is not going to solve the problem.

We need to have the Greek believe in their state, not hate it. So the solutions are few and on long-term.
- Information campaign on why we should pay our taxes.
- We need some public program, anything that the state can make and succeed to prove itself.
- We need more public services. We taxes to have publics services, so we need state-entreprises
- We also need better law enforcement, so that people don't conclude to state unable to uphold the law.
- Some way to crack on tax evasion by encouraging people to report all their incomes or punishing the culprits
- Crack down on corruption and scandals... but that is evident.

Sure, we can always do better in the public function, but we should not adapt more with less.

I don't believe in a solution. I don't see one.
Austerity is a major failure, the only thing it create is more taxes evasions.
- We have a problem of taxes evasions because Greek don't believe in the state, suddenly you heard, your taxes are going up and your service are going down or are privatized, does that make you believe more in the state now ? well, no, you have new reason to not pay your taxes. so, the problem remains.
- Greek would need a long-term solution, but the creditors won't accept.

Sorry, but for Greece, I don't see a solution. Except, annulment / partition of the debt. Even the FMI

Greek should vote Nay, send a strong message, they have nothing to lose, they already lost everything.



Side-content. : happy we totally forgotten that Greece was tricked by Goldman sacs, The company helped them to hide-their debt, meanwhile, they where buying credit defaults obligation on Greece debt. you can see those as insurgence on greece debt, they knew Greece would not default, but if the rum ours where strong and look very credible, the price of the assurance would go up, and they made a great profit, plus they were paid for their services by the former governments.

How they hide the debt, instead of emitting euro, directly, they ask for yen, and change them in euro. the operation does not count, it is considered as (an exchange of money), but really is nothing more then Greece Borrowing Euro.
beside, more link
http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... ill-needed
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Re: Greece and the Eurozone

Postby SelucianCrusader » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:25 am

I think Grecce should leave the EMU. The people in Brussels need to think over their strategy with ever closer union and realise that the EU is better off as an intergovernmental entity, not a supranational one. The EU's behaviour towards Greece is steadily pushing them in the arms of Putin.

Regarding the roots of the crisis, I pretty much agree with what you wrote. Both sides are to blame, in different ways.
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Re: Greece and the Eurozone

Postby MichaelReilly » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:52 pm

Down with this sort of thing
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Re: Greece and the Eurozone

Postby J4C0B65 » Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:00 pm

SelucianCrusader wrote:The EU's behaviour towards Greece is steadily pushing them in the arms of Putin.

Regarding the roots of the crisis, I pretty much agree with what you wrote. Both sides are to blame, in different ways.


Good point, seeing as Greece also hate NATO because of Turkey.
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Re: Greece and the Eurozone

Postby Maxington » Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:16 pm

I say they ask for Russian and Chineese Help,

And also do what finland did,

(Bail out the people, but leave the banks)
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Re: Greece and the Eurozone

Postby CanadianEh » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:18 pm

I think this is just proof on how flawed Socialism is as a system. Greece needs to first take care of their Bloated Government. They need to cut Government Spending, Privatize failing government industry and cut taxes for Businesses and the People, only when they do that they will be able to decrease debt and decrease unemployment, because currently businesses are leaving Greece because of high taxes and going to places like Switzerland (A very Liberal/Libertarian Society).

I believe that the no vote was good because it finally got Greece to recognize its problem and it cut its addiction to loans. When their is an addiction though there will be withdrawl and these next few months are going to be really hard for Greece. I just cannot understand why they elected a Left Wing government when they are going to do nothing to fix the problem and ultimately plunge Greece into second world status.
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Re: Greece and the Eurozone

Postby Farsun » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:23 pm

I think we should take a step back and realize that that this is due to Goldamn Sachs and the International Financial Industry that has raped and pillaged so many countries, this is a great thing. We're actually seeing the people of a country giving the big finger to big banks and the domineering finance industry.
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Re: Greece and the Eurozone

Postby Darkylightytwo » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:43 pm

CanadianEh wrote:I think this is just proof on how flawed Socialism is as a system. Greece needs to first take care of their Bloated Government. They need to cut Government Spending, Privatize failing government industry and cut taxes for Businesses and the People, only when they do that they will be able to decrease debt and decrease unemployment, because currently businesses are leaving Greece because of high taxes and going to places like Switzerland (A very Liberal/Libertarian Society).

I believe that the no vote was good because it finally got Greece to recognize its problem and it cut its addiction to loans. When their is an addiction though there will be withdrawl and these next few months are going to be really hard for Greece. I just cannot understand why they elected a Left Wing government when they are going to do nothing to fix the problem and ultimately plunge Greece into second world status.


Ah man, you really want to see what you want to believe.
This has nothing to do with tax rate on the business, people pay more taxes and people evade their taxes. The problem is that self-employed people don't pay their taxes. And they don't pay their pay their taxes because they don't believe in the state. Just take the time to read the piece of the business insider I place in the discussion, do you really think, Doctor, would win a messy 50 000 $ per year and are able to pay more then 50 000 on debt each year. the answer is no, they are lying. and in Greece, more then 30% of the work force is self-employed, so you have 30% of the Greek doing tax evasions

And, Greece was never socialism, they simply believe they were not able to fight tax evasion and choose to hide the problem under the carpet, With the first government having a deal with Goldman Sachs being the conservatives.

Beside, Germany have no such problem and they are have high corporates taxes,

People Elected Syzira because it was the only party who could find a solution to the problem, in the case the other countries of the union are ready to give a change to the chance. Syzira is barely even responsible of anything that has happen those years, they are not responsable of the debt, they had nothing to do with the government.

Farsun wrote:I think we should take a step back and realize that that this is due to Goldamn Sachs and the International Financial Industry that has raped and pillaged so many countries, this is a great thing. We're actually seeing the people of a country giving the big finger to big banks and the domineering finance industry.

Agree, Goldman Sachs destroy Greece, while they were in affair with Greece they were betting against, knowing Greece financial trouble would make the Greece default credits rise in valor, sold for much profits.
Last edited by Darkylightytwo on Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Greece and the Eurozone

Postby TheNewGuy » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:44 pm

Farsun wrote:I think we should take a step back and realize that that this is due to Goldamn Sachs and the International Financial Industry that has raped and pillaged so many countries, this is a great thing. We're actually seeing the people of a country giving the big finger to big banks and the domineering finance industry.


You're sounding like a Bernie Sanders supporter now, I love it.
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