Britain & the European Union: in or out?

[Aquinas]

Well, to lay my own cards on the table, as some of you know already, I am a strong supporter of Britain remaining within the European Union. That is not to say I am happy with every aspect of how the EU works; few people are. But the key thing, for me, is that with so many issues - whether we're talking about the economy, or greedy multinationals, or tax evasion, or the environment, or foreign policy, or trade negotiations, or workers rights, or international aid, or dealing with refugees and migration - the best solutions are to be found at a European level, rather than individual states doing their own thing.

For those who support the EU, these are dark times. It is impossible for me to see this referendum as a positive thing for the EU. The result is likely to be narrow; I would be surprised if the winning lead was greater than 10%. Either a vote to leave or only a narrow vote to stay in would probably be bad for Britain and bad for the EU.

Some of my fellow "Remainers" like to talk as though the rest of the world wants Britain to stay in the EU and thinks we are foolish to consider leaving. My own impression, for what it is worth, is that much of the world is not too bothered, and there are actually quite a lot of people outside the UK (including some right here) who think we should leave.

Unfortunately, I think there is a very real possibility we will vote to leave, although I hope that will not happen. Much will depend on who actually turns out to vote, as opposed to staying home. It may be that those who oppose EU membership will be generally more motivated to vote than those who support it.

[Autokrator15]

With respect this is alot of balony Aquinas. First off, I respect your opinion and respectfully disagree with it and im going to tell you why:

But the key thing, for me, is that with so many issues - whether we're talking about the economy, or greedy multinationals, or tax evasion, or the environment, or foreign policy, or trade negotiations, or workers rights, or international aid, or dealing with refugees and migration

Problem here is that you are giving away all your freedoms of your nation and when you vote for Westminster your voting for an empty house with no power at all.

or the environment,

The enviroment is a problem yes, but these problems cant be solved at a European level because as long as the USA and China dont abide by their obligations then it wont work. What we need to do is make deals inside the UN and implement them in our own nation states without EU interference the EU is not needed here.

or greedy multinationals

I am as a Liberal not against multinationals but they can be greedy and thats good, their ideas of making profits etc. make them healthy but its the crony damned politicians who give in to it. The European Lobby is bigger than the national lobbies have ever been so this with all do respect is a counter arguement for the EU and why Britain should leave.

tax evasion

Creating another government layer will not solve this. Diplomacy and negociations with all European leaders and signing a treaty is better than giving powers to a corrupt group in Brussels who love to destroy the nationstate and build a Federation, and let me tell you this: I dont want to be in the same country and you, I dont want to be in the same country as the French, the Germans or the Polish, I'm Dutch, my head of state is His Majesty the King, my government is the Dutch government and not those idiots in Brussels

or foreign policy, or trade negotiations

TTIP negociations are closed, Iceland made a good deal with China and the United Kingdoms greatest advantage comes from the Commonwealth of Nations. Also Foreign Policy is NOT something the EU should be involved in, its something for the nationstate.

or workers rights, or international aid, or dealing with refugees and migration

International agreements are better for this than to let the EU do this. Workers rights though is a power of the nationstate, no way in hell that those europhiles are going to tell me what rights or obligations I have.

Unfortunately, I think there is a very real possibility we will vote to leave, although I hope that will not happen. Much will depend on who actually turns out to vote, as opposed to staying home. It may be that those who oppose EU membership will be generally more motivated to vote than those who support it.

Consider this. The EU skeptics all over the EU will be lost if you dont leave. The EU project will be safe and leaving will become impossible. The EU dream will then go further and faster. They will be able to build their damned Federation. If you leave however it could cause the EU's colapse and we can start over and build a good economic union.

[callum]

I believe we should leave the EU as fast as we can; the idea of a single market where we must neglect our previous partners is an unfair idea. Why should some un-elected big-headed people restrict our vacuum use?

Furthermore our NHS can't survive much longer with the lack of government-subsidy, a lot of immigrants are flooding our public services which we can't handle with our public cuts.

Also now the EU is planning a EU army; a common defence policy? That means we can only be as strong as the weakest line; Turkey and former USSR States attempting to join the Union.

The EU is now withholding more plans until a referendum has occurred, they are frightening and if we leave, Holland, Italty and other Eusroskecptic countries will hold a referendum. Therefore if we leave the EU won't last much longer

This referendum I won't be old enough to vote; but hopefully on the 23rd June we will be leaving

Also - I feel Leave is good at debating? Stay seems to be lacking.

[Autokrator15]

I believe we should leave the EU as fast as we can; the idea of a single market where we must neglect our previous partners is an unfair idea. Why should some un-elected big-headed people restrict our vacuum use?

Furthermore our NHS can't survive much longer with the lack of government-subsidy, a lot of immigrants are flooding our public services which we can't handle with our public cuts.

Also now the EU is planning a EU army; a common defence policy? That means we can only be as strong as the weakest line; Turkey and former USSR States attempting to join the Union.

The EU is now withholding more plans until a referendum has occurred, they are frightening and if we leave, Holland, Italty and other Eusroskecptic countries will hold a referendum. Therefore if we leave the EU won't last much longer

This referendum I won't be old enough to vote; but hopefully on the 23rd June we will be leaving

Also - I feel Leave is good at debating? Stay seems to be lacking.

You're speaking my language

[Aquinas]

Well, I'm gonna say it: I think there is a serious risk the UK is going to vote to leave the EU, and if it does, I fear we're going to have an economic and political crisis.

[Siggon Kristov]

Now from an outsider,I can't comment much. It has been a topic of discussion here in Trinidad, on how will the brexit affect us and the Caribbean as a whole. Well i did some research on this and found out how the brexit could affect the Caribbean.
1. It would take longer for trade between Britain since they have to reorganize their trade,foreign and development policies.
2. Since Britain was basically the Caribbean's voice in the EU, with Britain gone the Caribbean would now have to decided whether its relations with the rest of Europe are actually "strong" instead of it being a case of "the only reason we have relations with the EU is because of/through Britain."

Yeah, things won't be so pretty for us, but I don't want to be selfish. If we want good relations with the EU, we should work on that ourselves.

In this situation think of Jamaica as the Britain of Caricom. Caricom is not going to survive if Jamacia leaves the same applies, the EU will unravel if Britain leaves. Think of it like this, Jamaica leaving Caricom could give significant damage to the Caribbean economy, Britain leaving the EU is like abuse to the world economy.

I think you overrate the role of the UK in the EU. I could understand if you said that the EU would unravel if Germany left, but the UK? The UK is perhaps the least integrated country in Western Europe. They're neither a part of the Schengen Area nor the Eurozone. They claim that nationals from other EU countries just suck their resources, when the reality is that British persons get more benefits from other EU governments than nationals from other EU countries get from the UK.

We are seeing a brexit of our own. It's called Jamexit. At the heart of the matter is another flare-up between Trinidad and Tobago and Jamaica over the matter of movement of people. It started when Jamaican nationals were denied entry into Trinidad and Jamaica responded by basically saying,", if you don’t allow us access to your country, whether it is to freely move within Caricom then you won’t have access to our market". There are pushes in the Jamaican Cabinet to leave Caricom.

Our current government is full of assholes. The Prime Minister doesn't want Jamaica to join the CCJ because he's "a Nationalist" and he's from the same party that pulled Jamaica out of the West Indian Federation.

The recent rift was exploited by certain powerful persons in Jamaica's private sector, as they encouraged a boycott of Trinidadian goods. They don't even care about our working class; they just want people to boycott goods from T&T because they can't handle the competition from T&T manufcturers.

The rift exploded because of underlying Nationalistic feelings that had existed long before. Jamaica never learns. It thought it was better than the other 'pauperised' (in the words of Bustamante) Caribbean countries, and now we envy any little thing other countries have over us. Let it leave CARICOM. You guys really don't need us.

[Aquinas]

I think you overrate the role of the UK in the EU. I could understand if you said that the EU would unravel if Germany left, but the UK? The UK is perhaps the least integrated country in Western Europe. They're neither a part of the Schengen Area nor the Eurozone.

It would be a big blow for the EU if the UK left; we're the second largest EU economy, after all, and are also (in European terms) big players military-wise and in international aid. Moreover, the risk is that if the UK left, it could encourage groups in other EU countries to want to leave. And that could end up being really disastrous.

They claim that nationals from other EU countries just suck their resources, when the reality is that [url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu]British persons get more benefits from other EU governments than nationals from other EU countries get from the UK

.

Not surprised. We Brits have a tendency to exaggerate our own importance and to always assume we're being swindled by cheating foreigners.

***

For what it's worth, my advice to any Brits reading this is to vote Remain tomorrow. If we leave, goodness knows what the consequences will be. It will be a messy and acrimonious exit, and our economy will be screwed.

***

Any thoughts on what will happen with David Cameron after the referendum? If it's a narrow result (which looks likely), then it would be difficult for him - whichever side wins.

[Siggon Kristov]

also (in European terms) big players military-wise and in international aid. Moreover, the risk is that if the UK left, it could encourage groups in other EU countries to want to leave. And that could end up being really disastrous.

I would actually love that. The idea of almost 30 white countries (a subset of which controlled most of the world through colonialism at some point) banding their military power together has always left a bad taste in my mouth. And international aid? We want reparations.

They claim that nationals from other EU countries just suck their resources, when the reality is that [url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu]British persons get more benefits from other EU governments than nationals from other EU countries get from the UK

.
Not surprised. We Brits have a tendency to exaggerate our own importance

I know...

It would be a big blow for the EU if the UK left; we're the second largest EU economy, after all

You're not even in the Eurozone.

our economy will be screwed.

Centuries of slavery and colonialism generate wealth for you, and you still don't have your shit together? Damn, Daniel.

[CCP]

also (in European terms) big players military-wise and in international aid. Moreover, the risk is that if the UK left, it could encourage groups in other EU countries to want to leave. And that could end up being really disastrous.

I would actually love that. The idea of almost 30 white countries (a subset of which controlled most of the world through colonialism at some point) banding their military power together has always left a bad taste in my mouth. And international aid? We want reparations.

They claim that nationals from other EU countries just suck their resources, when the reality is that [url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu]British persons get more benefits from other EU governments than nationals from other EU countries get from the UK

.
Not surprised. We Brits have a tendency to exaggerate our own importance

I know...

It would be a big blow for the EU if the UK left; we're the second largest EU economy, after all

You're not even in the Eurozone.

our economy will be screwed.

Centuries of slavery and colonialism generate wealth for you, and you still don't have your shit together? Damn, Daniel.

+1

[Reddy]

I tend to agree with Siggon on that the UK is not that important within the EU since it opts out of everything. Britons do tend to have an exaggerated view of their remaining power in the world, they certainly have a great deal of soft and cultural power, but hard or economic power, not so much anymore. I personally view the Leave campaign's message as primarily populist, xenophobic and utopian and create the image of a country which while imperfect like every other country, was not really that way for me. I'm tepidly in favour of Remaining despite recognising that the EU has some serious structural problems and desperately needs reform.