Britain & the European Union: in or out?

[CCP]

It's funny because the UK was, from people I know and have spoken to, have said that electing MEP doesn't even matter because most of the EU is run by bureaucrats and non-elected officials. How is that deliberative discussion when the EU Parliament is useless except for infringing on sovereignty?

The deliberation should've been done by Cameron and his staff in deciding when and how to exit the EU. Instead he cowardly ran away from standing up to the far right-wingers in his party and called a public vote to avoid blame. Now he's ended his own career as a result. Exactly what he deserves.

I have a good amount of money in the stock market, well at least a good amount for a teenager, and I honesty think that the market is overreacting. Brexit has caused a massive sell off in the American stock market, some of which is simply uncalled for. There are many companies that are not tied to British markets, and whose growth is more secular in nature, that are also taking a dip. I am viewing this as an opportunity to get shares in some of these companies at a discount.

I think that soon everyone will calm down and realize that the Brexit is not the end of the world, and that the global economy will survive.

It is an overreaction, but losses like this are losses nonetheless. Prices will try to correct Monday, but they won't get back to level. There is serious risk of another recession due to this and because it would be occurring during a very poor recovery it could very plausibly turn into a deep downturn. Reddy and Siggon are right that the role of the UK in the EU is minor and that the fundamentals aren't much affected by stay or go. But when you have 3% losses in the Dow Jones and 15% losses in most major currencies in a matter of hours, the fundamentals don't matter.

[MichaelReilly]

It's funny because the UK was, from people I know and have spoken to, have said that electing MEP doesn't even matter because most of the EU is run by bureaucrats and non-elected officials. How is that deliberative discussion when the EU Parliament is useless except for infringing on sovereignty?

Yeah, except that isn't true. The EU is more or less legitimately elected depending on how you look at it, just on an enormous, Europe-wide scale. This whole 'faceless dictatorial bureaucracy' is largely nonsense.

The biggest problem is that people believe it. It's taken the UK out of Europe primarily based on misconception (and deliberate misinformation)...

[MichaelReilly]

Also, you lot seen this petition demanding a re-run of the referendum? I voted remain, but that really is throwing a tantrum and unable to understand basic concepts of democracy. You can't re-run it just because you didn't win.

The funniest comment I've heard for a second referendum in the last couple of days has been '51.2 overturning the will of 48.8 isn't democracy'. Ehhhhh I think you'll find it is mate...

[Farsun]

Also, you lot seen this petition demanding a re-run of the referendum? I voted remain, but that really is throwing a tantrum and unable to understand basic concepts of democracy. You can't re-run it just because you didn't win.

The funniest comment I've heard for a second referendum in the last couple of days has been '51.2 overturning the will of 48.8 isn't democracy'. Ehhhhh I think you'll find it is mate...

Referendums never gained huge support in the United States at a Federal-level because of precisely that. They're open to the whims of the mob.

[Kubrick]

Also, you lot seen this petition demanding a re-run of the referendum? I voted remain, but that really is throwing a tantrum and unable to understand basic concepts of democracy. You can't re-run it just because you didn't win.

The funniest comment I've heard for a second referendum in the last couple of days has been '51.2 overturning the will of 48.8 isn't democracy'. Ehhhhh I think you'll find it is mate...

Oh yeah, I have some very fanatic 'remain' friends on Facebook who are now massively "upset" because Britain has turned into a racist dictatorship where all young students are being enslaved by the evil elderly folks. I've seen them repost the petition several times and applaud the Lib Dems for stating they would ignore the referendum if they were in government.

I didn't really care for the referendum but damn, it's so annoying to see all this whining. I wonder if 'leave' would have reacted the same way or if 'remain' is just more childish.

[MichaelReilly]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html

The fucking dregs of society are raising their heads. The Leave campaign always did do an excellent job at attracting the lowest element of humanity to its ranks...

[Farsun]

Forgive me if my American is showing but I've got a few things to say about the most recent posts...

Whats wrong with the idea of self-determination? One of the founding principles that the UK was supportive of after World War II...I find it scary that countries are more keen to give up their sovereignty for economic gain; or perceived economic gained. What was the price in pounds of milk before joining the EU and what is it going to be when Article 50 (I think or...40? I don't remember) is invoked and they leave? Oh, I know the answer, corporations and others will exploit and jack up the prices to make an even greater profit while claiming a loss for that year. (Unless it doesn't work that way in UK taxes because in the US a business can do that)

One of the principles of a state is its sovereignty, when a nation loses that it to a foreign power, they really cease to become a state and become more of an entity to the other state as it has sovereignty over that state. I find that totally perplexing again that someone would just willfully give that up...its scary to be entirely honest.

The whole immigration thing. I'm sorry, I don't see what racist about wanting to control immigration. What world have we come to live in that we cannot define our own state borders and protect them as such? Another principle of a state is a defined border and territory...you lose that and once again you further cease to be a state and giving that to another foreign power makes you an entity to that power.

As for the whole "Brexit" because their racist assholes is just a childish argument to be entirely honest. What's wrong with the British people wanting to control immigration? I feel the same way about American politics and American immigration policy. What is so wrong about us wanting to control our immigration? I really don't get it. The UK has the problem of immigrants, why should Brussels decide what best for the UK? For anyone in the EU that matter, why does Brussel's decide for Paris? Berlin? It just kind of rubs me the wrong way.

As for the Liberal Dems to come out and say "Oh, we'd ignore it if we were in government." it just hilarious. Imagine if the United States came out, held a referendum and decided on something as significant as the leaving of the EU and whoever wasn't in government at the time just up and said "Oh, if we were in government we'd just ignore it." I imagine the United States would collectively go bonkers.

EDIT: As a note, I think if you went to most Americans and said "Hey, what would you think about a political, social and economic union with Canada, America and Mexico with a shared government, shared economy and virtually no borders..." I envision that most Americans would probably laugh it off as a pipe dream...or some would share about the North American Union concept that has and is still being weighed.

[Polites]

EU members remain sovereign entities though, represented at the UN and other international bodies as such. The EU as a whole is essentially an international organization and not a federation/confederation, although it has elements of the latter, and is therefore established by treaties (in this case a messy and complicated mishmash of various pieces of international legislation, but treaties nonetheless). Signing treaties is a fundamental aspect of sovereignty, and respecting them is a fundamental obligation of any sovereign entity (pacta sunt servanda and all that). Although the EU has wider powers than most international organizations, it is still one and its participants are still legally sovereign.

Besides, even if the EU were to be a sovereign state and not a free trade agreement-cum-political union between sovereign states, why is it scary for states to voluntarily relinquish their sovereignty in the name of a perceived or real economic benefit? Many modern-day nations came to be due to smaller states agreeing to abandon their sovereignty and transfer it to a larger union, the UK included (and the economic benefit argument was probably the most powerful reason for the Act of Union).

As for the whole "Brexit" because their racist assholes is just a childish argument to be entirely honest. What's wrong with the British people wanting to control immigration? I feel the same way about American politics and American immigration policy. What is so wrong about us wanting to control our immigration? I really don't get it. The UK has the problem of immigrants, why should Brussels decide what best for the UK? For anyone in the EU that matter, why does Brussel's decide for Paris? Berlin? It just kind of rubs me the wrong way.

By that logic, why should Washington decide the immigration policy in North Carolina? Why does London take decisions that impact Scotland? Why should Bavaria or Padania or Catalonia not be able to establish their own policies?

[Hrafn]

By that logic, why should Washington decide the immigration policy in North Carolina? Why does London take decisions that impact Scotland? Why should Bavaria or Padania or Catalonia not be able to establish their own policies?

Pan-secessionism ftw!

[Farsun]

EU members remain sovereign entities though, represented at the UN and other international bodies as such. The EU as a whole is essentially an international organization and not a federation/confederation, although it has elements of the latter, and is therefore established by treaties (in this case a messy and complicated mishmash of various pieces of international legislation, but treaties nonetheless). Signing treaties is a fundamental aspect of sovereignty, and respecting them is a fundamental obligation of any sovereign entity (pacta sunt servanda and all that). Although the EU has wider powers than most international organizations, it is still one and its participants are still legally sovereign.

Besides, even if the EU were to be a sovereign state and not a free trade agreement-cum-political union between sovereign states, why is it scary for states to voluntarily relinquish their sovereignty in the name of a perceived or real economic benefit? Many modern-day nations came to be due to smaller states agreeing to abandon their sovereignty and transfer it to a larger union, the UK included (and the economic benefit argument was probably the most powerful reason for the Act of Union).

As for the whole "Brexit" because their racist assholes is just a childish argument to be entirely honest. What's wrong with the British people wanting to control immigration? I feel the same way about American politics and American immigration policy. What is so wrong about us wanting to control our immigration? I really don't get it. The UK has the problem of immigrants, why should Brussels decide what best for the UK? For anyone in the EU that matter, why does Brussel's decide for Paris? Berlin? It just kind of rubs me the wrong way.

By that logic, why should Washington decide the immigration policy in North Carolina? Why does London take decisions that impact Scotland? Why should Bavaria or Padania or Catalonia not be able to establish their own policies?

We have to be very careful with our terminology because it does indeed impact a lot of things.

What you just said, is incredibly problematic. The United Kingdom ceases to be a "state" and became an "entity" which implies it lost some of its sovereignty and resigned to a foreign power/other power aside from itself. The EU becomes the state itself because it makes the decisions for the whole and it has the authority and "legitimacy" in a sense of a state.

What you're on is a very dangerous path towards total loss of sovereignty to the EU. Washington has every right to decide the immigration policy for North Carolina because North Carolina is a "state" (read entity) of a wider sovereign state which is the United States of America. The United Kingdom is not a "state" (read entity), it's a nation-state which has lost a significant portion of its sovereignty to a foreign power (being the EU).

Unless you are pro-Federation of Europe/United States of Europe and then my entire argument is for nothing because you don't mind losing a vast majority of your sovereignty and your nation-state to a foreign power.

Again, maybe its my American showing.