Britain & the European Union: in or out?

Anything that is not directly related to the game or its community.

Should Britain remain in the EU, or leave?

Remain
16
44%
Leave
20
56%
 
Total votes : 36

Re: Britain & the European Union: in or out?

Postby Siggon Kristov » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:20 am

MichaelReilly wrote:Also, you lot seen this petition demanding a re-run of the referendum? I voted remain, but that really is throwing a tantrum and unable to understand basic concepts of democracy. You can't re-run it just because you didn't win.

The funniest comment I've heard for a second referendum in the last couple of days has been '51.2 overturning the will of 48.8 isn't democracy'. :lol: Ehhhhh I think you'll find it is mate...

I think that that electoral politics has led to an unfortunate conflation of Democracy and Populism.
Check out my latest Particracy project, and feel free to discuss it in the forums.
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Re: Britain & the European Union: in or out?

Postby Polites » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:44 am

Farsun wrote: The United Kingdom ceases to be a "state" and became an "entity" which implies it lost some of its sovereignty and resigned to a foreign power/other power aside from itself. The EU becomes the state itself because it makes the decisions for the whole and it has the authority and "legitimacy" in a sense of a state.


The EU is not a state, its members are. The members are sovereign independent states, the EU is not.

Farsun wrote:The United Kingdom is not a "state" (read entity), it's a nation-state which has lost a significant portion of its sovereignty to a foreign power (being the EU).


The United Kingdom is a sovereign state that signed a number of treaties, several of which established the international organization known as the European Union, an organization with major impact on the policies of its member states, but still an organization which sovereign independent states can voluntarily join and leave. The United States is also a member of quite a few international organizations, several of which do in fact have a major impact on its economic, military, social, or even postal policies.

Farsun wrote:Unless you are pro-Federation of Europe/United States of Europe and then my entire argument is for nothing because you don't mind losing a vast majority of your sovereignty and your nation-state to a foreign power.


If all of the EU member states would suddenly be swept by some Eurofederalist fever so that the overwhelming majority of their populations and governments would support the creation of a United States of Europe, why would the transfer of sovereignty from the nation states to the USE in this extremely unlikely scenario be by definition a bad/scary thing in itself? And why is it not a bad/scary thing that thirteen independent sovereign states once decided to transfer their sovereignty to a larger Union, or a "foreign power" as your argument goes? Same thing goes for the independent sovereign Kingdoms of England and Scotland transferring their sovereignty to a "foreign power", or the same thing that happened in Germany, Italy, or Romania - in most of those cases the new state created by unification was not seen as a tragic loss of sovereignty to a "foreign power" (although I'm sure the Venetians or Scots would disagree nowadays).

Just to note, I'm not a European Federalist myself, just wanted to make that argument to show that voluntary political unions and transfers of sovereignty are not inherently bad things or by necessity in conflict with self-determination.
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Re: Britain & the European Union: in or out?

Postby Govenor12 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:10 am

but still an organization which sovereign independent states can voluntarily join and leave.


This is not right. For countries involved in the currency union and the bail out , there is no explicit exit clause, especially for the bailout mechanism.


ransfers of sovereignty are not inherently bad things or by necessity in conflict with self-determination.


Well, in the case of the EU, every project was rejected by the people. For example the euro, everyhwere it was put up for a vote, it was rejected. Many countries like Germany didn't even held a referendum. Also for example the EU constitution which was rejected then repackaged and nevertheless implemented.
Doesn't this conflict with self-determination?
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Re: Britain & the European Union: in or out?

Postby Polites » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:35 am

Govenor12 wrote:This is not right. For countries involved in the currency union and the bail out , there is no explicit exit clause, especially for the bailout mechanism.


True, but there is an explicit exit clause for leaving the EU as a whole.

Govenor12 wrote:Well, in the case of the EU, every project was rejected by the people. For example the euro, everyhwere it was put up for a vote, it was rejected. Many countries like Germany didn't even held a referendum. Also for example the EU constitution which was rejected then repackaged and nevertheless implemented.Doesn't this conflict with self-determination?


Decisions implemented against the consent of the populations of the member states may conflict with self-determination, yes. I was merely advancing a hypothetical scenario where, if the populations of all member states want to be part of a pan-European federation, creating such a federation would be entirely consistent with the principle of self-determination. As for the specific treaties that govern the EU, all of them need to be ratified by each and every single member state, and there is no requirement in international law that mandates referenda for treaty ratification. Note that the European Constitution was rejected even though some member states voted overwhelmingly in favor of its adoption in referenda, but it was ultimately scrapped because two member states did not ratify it.
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Postby Prometheus79 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:56 am

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Postby Prometheus79 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:56 am

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Postby Prometheus79 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:01 pm

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Re: Britain & the European Union: in or out?

Postby Liu Che/Zhuli » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:23 pm

Prometheus79 wrote:
Autokrator15 wrote: I'm Dutch, my head of state is His Majesty the King, my government is the Dutch government and not those idiots in Brussels :P


Remind me, when was he elected? I keep forgetting.


Ceremonial head of state=/=President of the EU Commission with the power to issue policy
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Re: Britain & the European Union: in or out?

Postby Govenor12 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:21 pm

True, but there is an explicit exit clause for leaving the EU as a whole.


Well, there is a decision by the german constitutional court approving the overall mechanism of the ESM while recognaizing that for the bail out mechanism there is ultimately no escape possible form the ESM ,meaning even when a state exits the EU and the euro zone, this state still has certain obligations deriving from that.
This is something no particually democratic, binding coming generations for ever. Moreover, the right to exit the EU was only granted in 2007 by the treaty of Lisbon , alias the EU constitution.

Note that the European Constitution was rejected even though some member states voted overwhelmingly in favor of its adoption in referenda, but it was ultimately scrapped because two member states did not ratify it.

The point is, the EU-constitution and the Lisbon treaty is ultimately quite similiar. There are many features from the constitution, which was twice rejected, in the treaty. So, it of course gives the impression that it is kind of a backroom policy making. Another reason why the EU is so unpopular.


You do realise that these were decisions of the national governments, don't you? So in essence what you are saying here is that giving power to national governments conflicts with self-determination.


No, I am not saying this. However, when a institution is so deeply unpopular then it does conflict with democracy that states hand over power against the wishes of the people to an entity like the EU.


As for the specific treaties that govern the EU, all of them need to be ratified by each and every single member state, and there is no requirement in international law that mandates referenda for treaty ratification.


That may be so. However then politicans must have the guts to clearly communicate that they want the project of the EU even against the wishes of their people or that the will of the people is not important in this regard.
Furthermore, we are now reaching such a high degree of integration that national constitutions need to be changed in order to be coherent with the EU regulations, automatically triggering binding refrendums in many states, such like Germany.
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Re: Britain & the European Union: in or out?

Postby Aquinas » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:07 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37883576

Everything is getting very controversial now, with the judges saying Parliament has to vote on invoking Article 50, which would begin the process of withdrawing the UK from the EU.

I'm wondering...do other countries have messes like this...or is just Britain, with our famous unwritten constitution?

The thing with the British constitution is we have a habit of just sort of making it all up as we go along... ;)
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