Hillary or Trump?

[jamescfm]

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[Autokrator15]

[Doc]

This does nothing to address the problem that conservative media sources portray themselves as outmanned and outgunned and I think on some level they truly believe it. They could very understandably feel like they don't have the luxury of airing such stories.

... snip...

Oh and as a side note about 26% of the voting population voted for Trump with it only being slightly higher for Hillary. As only about 56% actually voted it's hard to say who he's actually representing.

I think this is the point. They have a siege mentality and have had that at least since 1989, and maybe before that. Scorched Earth, though, is a Republican Strategy. Starving the Beast is too. And so is the Southern Strategy. Can't say I blame them for feeling that they are under seige- When you play how the elites in the GOP have played for longer than I have been alive, you gotta believe that the first chance your enemies get some power, there's some scores going to be settled.

Well- at any rate. Now it is up to Trump Supporters to demonstrate their claims that their support for Trump was not about race. KKK rallies are already firing up in some places in the South. Lets see some red hat wearing, good ole boy Trump Supporters go down there and stand against them, and maybe even put their bodies on the line to make it known that they ain't going to put up with that scum in their neighborhood taking their movement away from them. Then they will prove that they understand the position of the other side. If Southerners and rural whites don't stand against the Klan, neo-Nazi and the alt-Right barnacles who have attached themselves like leeches to Trump's movement, who are the EASIEST people to oppose, by the way, then you better believe all the efforts to get the non-Trump folks to "understand" the plight of rural America will be wasted, because no matter what, if these people don't stand up for minorities against these newly emboldened thugs, If the poor and the underrepresented and mistreated don't stand up for other poor and mistreated and underrepresented folks who are now targets of empowered elements of hate in the society, I don't care about the rest of it. If they are unwilling to come to meet me in the center, I have no stake or interest in their America, and no reason to do anything but TEA Party the fuck out of them from the Left. We'll call it operation monkey wrench.

[Doc]

I was saying before that the leftists on social media were angering me with the crybaby stuff, but I am increasingly frustrated by the rights reaction too. The truly shitty thing is that I look at the very dogmatic and stubbornly held opinions that some people on the left have tried to force down my throat and it pisses me off. But then I go home and listen to my parents speak (hard core republicans) and I am astounded by how ignorant and close minded they sound. Then I end up arguing against them like I am a liberal.

That is what really sucks about being in the center. I look left and I look right and I am disgusted by both.

+1

For the record, I opposed Hillary as much as I opposed Trump. She was no good either. Warmonger imperialist centrist opportunist... But she didn't win, so I don't care to spend much time on her.

And I'm not really talking about trump either. I want to know how Trump supporters and people of the Left can get together to make a new coalition which isn't taken to the fucking cleaners by demagogues by the left or the right each election. I don't ever want to be in this situation, and I know that as a left wing academic who also has more debt than I could ever afford to pay back in the majority of my working life, I have more in common with the rural white that voted for Trump than I do with the bull shit liberal political establishment who claims to represent me in Government. So I really seriously want to have this conversation with hard core, but anti-racist Trump supporters. We can talk and find out just how similar our hopes, fears and dreams actually are, and then figure out how to kick these bastards out.

[Autokrator15]

I'm a right-wing european liberal and let me tell you this. The prospect of a Trump presidency both thrills and scares me at the same time.

Following I side with I agree with 81% with Trump, his attacks on the left and how he crushed them is terrific and beautifull. The progressives have lost the voters mostly because they are out of touch with the people. The whole idea that limiting immigration and deporting illegals is seen as racist by the leftist media and politicians showcases this.

But what fears me is that he lacks expierence, Is a bit of a nut and his ideas about NATO scare me the most. I wanted a Republican win in the USA because this peacefull dove strategy of Obama is not working.

[jamescfm]

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[Aquinas]

I wish Obama had been able to make more progress on health reform and gun control. It now seems likely things will slip backwards on those two key issues, sadly.

[UniSocAll]

The progressives have lost the voters mostly because they are out of touch with the people. The whole idea that limiting immigration and deporting illegals is seen as racist by the leftist media and politicians showcases this.

The people that didn't vote for Clinton also didn't vote for Trump, seeing how Trump got less votes than Romney did four years ago. It's nothing about 'out of touch with people'; Trump's core voted for him and that was the only demographic he won; Clinton lost 5 million votes, partially because of disgruntled Sanders voters, partly due to new voter suppression laws since the SC struck down some provisions from the VRA - this has caused some people in some states to have to travel far and stand in long lines in order to cast a vote, a freedom that some (minorities) don't actually have if they only get limited time off from work. Some counties even reduced voting polls by 10% - very conveniently in e.g. minority neighbourhoods.

But what fears me is that he lacks expierence, Is a bit of a nut and his ideas about NATO scare me the most. I wanted a Republican win in the USA because this peacefull dove strategy of Obama is not working.

His whole platform will be a mess - whatever swamp he wanted to drain, he's picking alligators to fill up his cabinet in. Climate change denier for the EPA, science-denier for Education, oil magnates for Interior. It'll be a huge disaster.

[UniSocAll]

Obama is far from a peaceful dove, he left Iraq on the Bush timetable, he never closed Guantanamo, he did little to curb the snooping powers granted by the Patriot Act and the US has hardly been non-interventionist when it comes to the Middle East.

It would have been irresponsible for him to close Guantanamo when Congress didn't want to help him in the logistics needed for that - funding for relocation, dismantling, etc. still needs to be approved by Congress.

His war tactics, though, always puzzled me and was the worst part of his presidency.

[UniSocAll]

I wish Obama had been able to make more progress on health reform and gun control. It now seems likely things will slip backwards on those two key issues, sadly.

He did - 25M Americans now have affordable insurance, healthcare costs rise have slowed down to more manageable levels, and many of those dependent on the exchange have rates that stayed with or below inflation levels. It's amazing what the ACA was able to accomplish in such a short time, for so many people, against the odds and watering-down that needed to happen for congress, and without all states implementing it.

His gun control laws, again, he made little steps, but with a red Congress, nothing considerable was going to happen. I'm more impressed with his criminal justice reforms, with efforts looking into bettering police policies and modernising old, outdated practices.

Sadly, whatever progress was made will now be reversed and things being even worse - especially if Trump continues with his no-plan, no-substance 'insurance'/healthcare plan.