Hillary or Trump?

[Hrafn]

What I really wonder is how the fuck Hillary beat Bernie in the Democrat primary. What the hell were they thinking? I'm almost inclined to believe in the conspiracy theories that she won the candidacy thanks to voting fraud, because I can't wrap my head around how anyone who isn't braindead could prefer Hillary over Bernie. Was it because the dems really, really, really wanted a candidate as evil and crooked as possible?

[RIS]

Doc, while I think your analysis has some merit I believe it ultimate fails to take into account several factors.

The first being our perception, often times we construct our own little social/political bubbles this is human nature and as such we do it naturally. This means we often discount opinions, perspectives and yes sometimes even facts that our contrary to our viewpoints. This happens to the left and the right alike no one is exempt from it; we all fall victim to it. The problem is exacerbated by social media which specifically curates pieces that reinforce our preconceptions. So people can say "Oh I've never seen a liberal/conservative piece that says X" but, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. It could very well be that it falls outside of that person's "bubble". Think about it, the liberal articles saying that these disillusioned conservatives have a point are much lower in number than others. If a person is not within that sphere or does not actively seek it out the probability that they see such an article is rather low. The same could be said in reverse that the reason someone doesn't see such things is because of a semi self-imposed lens.

The second is a skewed media coverage, for better or for worse the fact of the matter is that there are less conservative media outlets than there are centrist and liberal media sources. So while one side has the advantage of being able to air pieces that say well maybe they have good points. The other side which sees its self as under represented may think that it doesn't have that luxury. As the opportunity cost of airing something like that would be a piece that could have potentially addressed their opponents' agenda.

This isn't to say that I agree with either side only that it is not as simple as good vs evil, black vs white, racism vs multiculturalism. Certain people were at least partially disenfranchised not all of which were uneducated, racist and or white. I truly think that our inability to see past our own tiny little sphere is what led us here. It fosters divisiveness, conflict and discord; It allows us to dehumanize the other side and trivialize each others problems. And that isn't an indictment of one side but, of both because they are equally as responsible for the continuation of this mode of thinking. Furthermore the characterization that both sides offer is one in which they portray their rivals as dumb, irrational and incompetent just furthers this division between the two which is a chasm that so desperately needs to be mended.

[Hrafn]

Why don't I ever see an article saying "Well, we understand that the only economic activity you have going on in your area is coal, but we Rightists have to come to grips with the fact that we are polluting the shit out of our environment by burning it. We don't have to agree on climate change, but for crying out loud, maybe those liberals have a point when they talk about clean air and mines which systematically pollute the water that we and our kids drink. Yeah, it isn't us Appalachia folks who get to make the decisions about mine clean ups that these corporate bastards refuse to do- we are just the ones who get fucked by those corporations which sold your grandpa, your pa and you food and water at the company store allowing you to buy your way into virtual debt slavery, gave three generations of your family black lung, and then just left you hanging out to dry while they closed the mines so they could protect their share price. Maybe we should get on board the modernization train and figure out how to do something else in our community, something good FOR our community, and not stick to this backward economy anymore." I never see ANY rightists begging their readers to please understand that while it might be the only source of income for so many people, that is nonetheless destroying the air and water not only for everyone else, but for themselves as well.

You obviously haven't been looking hard enough.

http://conservamerica.org/
http://www.amerika.org/tag/deep-ecology/

[Doc]

Look Gentlemen, you both have a point. Yes, there is lit out there- neither of the pieces I above were directed at the coal worker in WV who are about to lose their jobs, especially that piece of supremacist literature, which said that we need ecology, basically so that the pure white race can survive, even if it meant the removal of non-whites. And this isn't bubble thinking- I also subscribe to the National Review's online edition, and regularly read Fox News' Website, and read Weekly Standard from time to time. And I also listen to Rush and Hannity on the radio. So I am pretty familiar with rightwing mainstream media sources. Granted, its not the tin-foil hat stuff and it isn't the lebensraum shit that was posted, but conservative credentials nonetheless.

But my point is, I don't see Conservatives and Trump media outlets begging their supporters to try to understand the Liberal side. Instead, and yes these are mainstream sources, but they are exhorting their readers to please try to understand the pain the people who (will, and the time, have now) vote for Trump, try to see the world from their side.

I understand the Trump voters' argument perfectly well. What I want is the Trump voters to try to understand why I oppose their candidate, and I don't think they are encouraged to believe that people who oppose their candidate have any valid arguments. In fact, the opposition is seen as an excuse to hate them even more. I don't see anyone encouraging Trump supporters to come to the middle. That's all I was saying.

But as long as they never have to reckon with why their opponents oppose them, they will never have to do anything different or see anything different than they do now, and much of what Trump supporters do now, many of their opponents find unnecessarily irritating.

So yes, if I spend time, I can find websites which may be visited by a few folks, which promote a conservative case for ecology and environmentalism. Is that what the folks at the Trump Rally are looking at though? Are they being encouraged to look at it? Are they being encouraged to actually go talk to civil rights activists and find out what they are ACTUALLY so upset about? And most importantly, are their being encouraged to do that from information sources that they trust?

Or are they looking at the headlines on Breitbart, listening to EIB, watching Fox, reading Infowars, and just absorbing the message that anyone complaining about cops beating black people are just a bunch of crybabies, engaged in race warfare, and have no legitimate concern whatsoever? Is it possible that Leftists are told we have to come out of our bubble, but Rightists are never ever told that? And if so, how the hell is Trump going to make America great for anyone but those who already agree with him, which is less than 20% of the population?

[MichaelReilly]

And so the Western world continues to sleepwalk into fascism.

I'm not blaming anyone who voted third-party or abstained. It's not your fault. The only people to blame for the continuing fascistic surge across the West are those who directly voted for it.

These are seriously dark times. The only positives to be taken from this are that globalisation is in its deathbed, and neoliberalism has now been truly rejected across the board by the populace. It's up to the Left to harness the power of the complete disenchantment with the political system and rediscover its radical zeal. Watered-down 'social democracy' within the confines of the neoliberal framework is simply asking for a continued surge in the radical and far-right.

P.S. It's strange to note that since 1988, the Republicans have only ever won the popular vote once (in 2004) in a presidential election.

[RIS]

Bubble think was only one of my arguments and I wasn't necessarily accusing you of it I merely offered it as a potential explanation. Although, I must add that just because we seek out media sources that are contrary to our perspectives it doesn't mean we aren't victim to the "social bubble". Because, the social bubble isn't just media sources, it's friend groups, work environments and many other factors.

This does nothing to address the problem that conservative media sources portray themselves as outmanned and outgunned and I think on some level they truly believe it. They could very understandably feel like they don't have the luxury of airing such stories. Although, I have seen a good number of articles and published media that say that in certain cases the left may have legitimate issues. Although these occurrences are limited they are in no way nonexistent. There are conservatives that freely admit that there is a problem with the police force and minorities, that their are ecological problems and so on and so forth, the differences arise from how each side wants to deal with them. As for how often conservatives are told to look outside their own bubble, it happens all the time. How often they do is typically a different story but, that in no way should affect our willingness to take a look from their perspective.

I must concede however, that a large part of Trump supporters would rather consume the prepackaged propaganda that Fox and others offer than to think critically. However, this trend isn't limited to the right it is very indicative of a large portion of leftist as well. And that was my entire point that the majorities on either side are unwilling to try to understand the other and that leads to the politically fractured climate that currently exists. Those who truly think about their position critically are rare unicorns whether they are left or right. And it is a very dangerous slope indeed to trivialize your opponents problems as it can lead to dehumanizing them which in and of its self can lead to dangerous places.

Oh and as a side note about 26% of the voting population voted for Trump with it only being slightly higher for Hillary. As only about 56% actually voted it's hard to say who he's actually representing.

[hts]

This isn't to say that I agree with either side only that it is not as simple as good vs evil, black vs white, racism vs multiculturalism. Certain people were at least partially disenfranchised not all of which were uneducated, racist and or white. I truly think that our inability to see past our own tiny little sphere is what led us here. It fosters divisiveness, conflict and discord; It allows us to dehumanize the other side and trivialize each others problems. And that isn't an indictment of one side but, of both because they are equally as responsible for the continuation of this mode of thinking. Furthermore the characterization that both sides offer is one in which they portray their rivals as dumb, irrational and incompetent just furthers this division between the two which is a chasm that so desperately needs to be mended.

+1

I understand the Trump voters' argument perfectly well. What I want is the Trump voters to try to understand why I oppose their candidate, and I don't think they are encouraged to believe that people who oppose their candidate have any valid arguments. In fact, the opposition is seen as an excuse to hate them even more. I don't see anyone encouraging Trump supporters to come to the middle. That's all I was saying.

I think that is a fair point. I totally understand why many dislike Trump, and like I said before, he is very far from a perfect candidate.

I was saying before that the leftists on social media were angering me with the crybaby stuff, but I am increasingly frustrated by the rights reaction too. The truly shitty thing is that I look at the very dogmatic and stubbornly held opinions that some people on the left have tried to force down my throat and it pisses me off. But then I go home and listen to my parents speak (hard core republicans) and I am astounded by how ignorant and close minded they sound. Then I end up arguing against them like I am a liberal.

That is what really sucks about being in the center. I look left and I look right and I am disgusted by both.

[UniSocAll]

Brexit will look mild compared to this disaster. It's simply ridiculous that so many people can vote for such a platform of hate and fear.

America will straight-up have a science-denying economically disastrous bigot as its face to the world come January. Until that time, enjoy the Trump Vigilantes reclaiming back their (white) America.

https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656

[jamescfm]

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[UniSocAll]

Brexit will look mild compared to this disaster. It's simply ridiculous that so many people can vote for such a platform of hate and fear.

I have to say it kind of pissed me off that people conflated the two. There are actual reasons to vote to leave the EU for democratic/liberal reasons, there are no such excuses for Trump.

Actual reasons or not, the rhetoric that took over the Out campaign had a very much unfortunate after-effect.