Hillary or Trump?

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Who should be the next President of the United States?

Hillary Clinton
29
54%
Donald Trump
25
46%
 
Total votes : 54

Re: Hillary or Trump?

Postby UniSocAll » Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:14 am

SelucianCrusader wrote:At least it feels like America will be recognizable as America again.


If you mean the loud, arrogant, ignorant, and regressive country that is so rich yet it can't take care of it's people country that it was pre-2008, you'd be correct. Russia is already chasing away NATO-nation personnel, China is celebrating the death of TPP with it's own deal with the same countries, and Assad and Daesh are celebrating the Trump victory.

Meanwhile, a white-nationalist is tapped to head Immigration, a denier of the evolution theory is tapped for education, a climate change denier tapped for environment, oil magnates for interior, somehow Gingrich, Palin, Carson, Scott, & Giulianni are also considered for spots. Drain the swamp? More like 'the swamp got ten feet deeper'.

Good news is he's already gone back on at least one promise: The ACA stays.
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Re: Hillary or Trump?

Postby UniSocAll » Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:19 am

jamescfm wrote:
UniSocAll wrote:The fact remains, Trump got less votes that Romney did four years ago, but those who voted for Obama in big numbers didn't come out for Clinton. In fact, Clinton has a good shot at winning 2, and maybe as much as 5, if there were no third party candidates.


This just isn't true. Most people who voted third party just wouldn't have voted if those candidates weren't available. According to this BBC news article the breakdown of Johnson/Stein voters' second choice was about:
Clinton- 25%
Trump- 15%
Neither- 60%


It's easier to say that you wouldn't vote when there are 3rd party choices. I wonder what exit polls of that question would look like in Wisconsin or Michigan, where Clinton only needed Stein voters to support here.
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Re: Hillary or Trump?

Postby UniSocAll » Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:25 am

jamescfm wrote:There's a temptation to be downhearted about a Trump Presidency, I certainly was to start with but now, I'm feeling more optimistic. Trump won't do most of what he's said he will, I doubt he could, even if he wanted to. I think in the long-run, this election will serve as a kind of slap in the face for the Democrats; they'll be reminded that they need to have more politicians like Sanders and Obama (though more 'Candidate for the Democratic Nomination Obama' than 'President Obama') and fewer like Clinton. Population trends suit the Democrats, they just have to take advantage of them.


But Clinton beat Trump. You'd have to go back to 2008 to find a candidate that got less actual votes than Trump - and even then, McCain only had 300.000 votes less. In fact, the Democratic Party has now won every popular vote except one since Reagan left office.
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Re: Hillary or Trump?

Postby jamescfm » Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:54 am

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Re: Hillary or Trump?

Postby UniSocAll » Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:40 am

jamescfm wrote:The point remains, people voted third party because they thought Clinton was a shitty candidate (and rightly so!).


I'm really interested in listening what made her worse than a) other candidates in the past, and b) worse than Trump. Whatever problem she has as a candidate, it seemed doubly wrong for her. Why? Why did people trust other candidates more, including her own husband, but she is labeled untrustworthy and get's blamed for his husband?

jamescfm wrote:I count two (Bush Sr. and Bush Jr.'s second term) but point taken. Clinton did not beat Trump, the electoral college is the system and Sanders, Obama, Kaine, Biden, Warren, heck even Chelsea probably could've beaten Trump. That's the point, the Democratic establishment were less interested in winning the election and more interested in Hillary's self-bestowed right to become first female President.


Reagan was still in office when Bush senior won the election. It'll be 32 years and one election lost for the Democrats come 2020. But you're right, I should have just stated the year to make the point.
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Re: Hillary or Trump?

Postby jamescfm » Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:09 am

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Re: Hillary or Trump?

Postby Hrafn » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:02 am

Image

Seriously though, I'm also critical about Trump. His pro-coal, oil and gas stance is dangerous. I hope someone talks sense into him so that he invests in nuclear energy instead.
On the other hand, he seems like he will have a sane foreign policy.
What I really like about Trump's victory is that he has cleared the path that hopefully someone better will walk 2020. The left-liberal hegemony is falling.
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Re: Hillary or Trump?

Postby Hrafn » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:03 am

From what I understand it was Bill who sowed the seeds for the subprime mortgage crisis. The economic boom during his administration was largely a carry-over from his predecessors, and then his successor was blamed for the recession. Though of course Bush made things even worse with his war-keynesianism.
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Re: Hillary or Trump?

Postby UniSocAll » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:51 pm

Hrafn wrote:What I really like about Trump's victory is that he has cleared the path that hopefully someone better will walk 2020. The left-liberal hegemony is falling.


Except it really isn't, considering again, Trump got 1) less votes than Clinton, 2) less votes than Romney and barely more than McCain, and 3) a much more narrower coalition of voters. The demographics of the US has changed in such a way that Trump's ascend only spells doom for the Republican Party, even if Trump did win. Trump won White Men, White Women, and Non-College Educated White People. That's it, and come next election, the Trump Platform will stand again in a more diverse America.

The left hegemony has been there since 1992, but the system worked to protect the republican party, and some incompetence by the Democratic Party did as well.However, it could very well be a broken Republican Party the next four years, and in 2020.
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Re: Hillary or Trump?

Postby UniSocAll » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:57 pm

jamescfm wrote:Two points that should be made clear before I continue. Firstly, I'm British so all I know about Clinton is what an outsider can see from watching the news and commentators (I watch the Drunken Peasants a lot so they may have skewed my perspective). Secondly, I'm simply too young to remember Bill Clinton, so all I know about him is what I have read about and seen in documentaries (particularly this series which I watched only yesterday).

That said, she's not worse than Trump. If I had the opportunity to vote, there is no doubt I would have voted for Clinton. She was better than Trump, to me, in almost every way but the reason that she was worse than other candidates was the immense political baggage that she carried with her throughout the campaign. Imagine Bernie is the nominee, Trump goes to attack him, what does he say? No emails, no health scare, no Bill rape allegations, nothing but a solid record of standing against establishment politicians.

From what I understand Bill was a great President, he left America on the best economic footing it has been on in its entire history and were it not for George Bush that may have continued. The fact of the matter is that the election is concluded, now we must focus on what happens moving forward and, in my view, that means embracing the Populist Progressive/Left section of the Democratic party and nominating somebody like Sanders, Warren or Gabbard.


I understand that Sanders was better than Clinton, however even then, Sanders still didn't do as well in the primaries. i get the whole 'rigged primary' thing that people have, but even that I disagree with - Sanders simply wasn't getting the vote of the base of the Democrats, though he would have put up a fight against Trump as they would split the White Vote.

In the end, this has to be a wake-up call to the US, and this will simply nudge them in the correct direction. Until then, it will be known as a backwards developed nation, the likes of the Phillippines, Hungary, maybe even whatever's left of the UK after Brexit (if Brexit actually materialises).
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