Forms of government

Anything that is not directly related to the game or its community.

Which form of government do you think is best?

Direct Democracy
6
17%
Representative Democracy
16
46%
Semi-Direct Democracy (think Switzerland)
7
20%
Dictatorship
3
9%
No government
1
3%
Other
2
6%
 
Total votes : 35

Re: Direct vs Representative Democracy

Postby jamescfm » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:23 am

.
Last edited by jamescfm on Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
jamescfm
 
Posts: 5472
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:41 pm

Re: Direct vs Representative Democracy

Postby Autokrator15 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:27 pm

A represenative democracy works better. On referenda most people do not know what the subject is about or simply do not care. It is best to allow politicians who devote their time to learn and to read the treaties and effects of laws to decide for us. If we do not agree with their judgement we can vote for another party the next time.

However, I do believe that referenda on matters of handing powers given to the parliament or the government which they wish to transfer to a third party or to a supranational body, such as the EU, should be held. The powers of the parliament and the government are not theirs to give away, nor did we give them a mandate to do so. They should ask the people, who gave them such powers, if they agree with the move or not.
Image
User avatar
Autokrator15
 
Posts: 583
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 4:35 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Direct vs Representative Democracy

Postby Hrafn » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:15 pm

Unfortunately, Aquinas isn't here to defend himself, but I feel I need to respond to some of his arguments. These arguments are pretty commonplace anyway, so I could have written this to anyone.

Aquinas wrote:You make some valid points here, but I would argue that when citizens vote for their political representatives, they tend to vote on the broad basis of their principles/political perspective/"ideology". A conservative will vote for a conservative, a liberal will vote for a liberal, a socialist will vote for a socialist and so on. ie. I don't get to vote individually on every single issue, but I do get the chance to vote for the candidate who I think will represent my wishes in a broad sense.

That's how voting works in representative democracies, and that's the problem. Why would a politician represent my overall interests just because we share a vaguely described ideology like "conservatism", "liberalism" or "socialism"?

Aquinas wrote:
Hrafn wrote:I know that some people criticise the Swiss system because it has a low voter turnout, but in my opinion this is a feature and not a bug - for every issue, there will be a portion of the voters who don't care either way, either because it doesn't affect them, or because they have no knowledge about the issue. These people are supposed to shut up!

That's an interesting view, but I'm not sure I agree, because the risk of having frequent referendums with low turnouts is that the minority "special interests" end up wielding too much influence, and decisions end up being made which do not reflect the general interests of the citizenry.

This will be a problem in any form of democracy. If few people care about an issue it is not going to be brought up in the election campaigns, and it is not what is going to determine where the bulk of the votes go. Such issues will be settled behind the curtains.
Furthermore it's easier for a powerful lobby group to influence a few hundred politicians to support your special interests than to influence the entire voting population. Politicians can even be outright bribed.

Aquinas wrote:
Hrafn wrote:Too bad that there are so many politicians without qualifications! I guess the system would be vastly improved if ministers were required to have appropriate degrees. Is there any country that has such a system?

I'm not convinced that would be a good idea, but I would point out that at least in the UK, most government ministers tend to have degrees, and you'll find a lot of them went to the top private schools and to the most prestigious universities. For example, see the table in this article: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 38116.html

That table doesn't tell what fields their degrees are in though. I don't care if the minister of energy has a PhD in Political Science, that doesn't make him more qualified than me to tell what energy sources should be promoted. And even if ministers do have appropriate degrees, what about the MPs?
User avatar
Hrafn
 
Posts: 905
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:36 pm
Location: Where the sun does not set

Re: Direct vs Representative Democracy

Postby Hrafn » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:24 pm

Autokrator15 wrote:A represenative democracy works better. On referenda most people do not know what the subject is about or simply do not care. It is best to allow politicians who devote their time to learn and to read the treaties and effects of laws to decide for us. If we do not agree with their judgement we can vote for another party the next time.

But if the people are incompetent, why would they be able to judge the competence of the administration? How would they be able to tell the failings of the politicians apart from external conditions that they have no control over?

More likely it's going to be like this:
1. People elect party A.
2. People are angry at party A for being stupid.
3. People elect party B.
4. People are angry at party B for doing the same stupid things that party A did.
5. Rinse and repeat.
User avatar
Hrafn
 
Posts: 905
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:36 pm
Location: Where the sun does not set

Re: Direct vs Representative Democracy

Postby TPPDJT » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:05 pm

Dictatorship of the Proletariat
"Whoever excommunicates me, excommunicates God." - Girolamo Savonarola

"In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." - Desiderius Erasmus
User avatar
TPPDJT
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:59 am
Location: Campus Martius

Re: Direct vs Representative Democracy

Postby Hrafn » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:38 pm

I'm interested in delegative democracy - a combination of direct and representative democracy. You can choose to vote on everything yourself, or delegate your votes to delegates you trust. You can have different delegates for different areas of policy, so you don't have to settle for someone who only agrees with you half of the time, and if you happen to vehemently disagree with your delegate on a particular bill, you can take your vote back just for that occasion. And if you find this bewildering, you would be free to delegate all of your decisions to a political party, assuming that legal persons can register as delegates.

However, I do think that something can be said for having a small group of salaried people working full-time on researching, proposing and debating legislation, so I would propose that a number of delegates with the largest number of clients in each policy category take seats in a parliament of sorts. (But it should be optional for any delegate to also run for parliament.) Unlike ordinary delegates, MPs would serve a specific term, and cannot be called back at any time, ensuring some stability.
Bills would be proposed either by the MPs, or as popular/delegate initiatives - requiring a certain number of signatures, or being proposed by a delegate or group of delegates with a certain number of clients, the number being a percentage of the number of eligible voters (just to prevent the system from being cluttered with thousands of low quality bills). Constitutional amendments would need both popular support (directly or via delegates) and the support of the parliament to pass.

As for how to divide the policy areas, looking at how ministries and parliamentary comittees are organized in existing systems would provide a blueprint.

This system would have to be administered electronically though, and that means that all citizens must have internet access and an electronic ID legitimation. That should solve itself as the generations shift. But it would also require tight security to protect against hacking and securing the privacy of the voters.

Not that this has a snowball's chance in hell of ever being implemented.

What do you say, is the system I proposed batshit crazy?
User avatar
Hrafn
 
Posts: 905
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:36 pm
Location: Where the sun does not set

Previous

Return to Off-topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests