UK General Election, 2017

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Who would/will you vote for in the UK general election on the 8th June?

Conservative Party
14
30%
Labour Party
16
35%
Liberal Democrats
6
13%
Green Party
1
2%
UK Independence Party
4
9%
Scottish National Party
3
7%
Plaid Cymru
1
2%
Other (please specify)
1
2%
 
Total votes : 46

Re: UK General Election, 2017

Postby jamescfm » Sat May 20, 2017 4:49 pm

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Re: UK General Election, 2017

Postby matthewleitch » Sat May 20, 2017 6:25 pm

I am a libertarian in Britain- my options are literally Conservative and that is it. They're the only party which economically aligns with me.

I think that the only solution to Labour right now apart from a split is a replacement of Corbyn - you'll probably say he is great and everyone will vote for him - but the average person doesn't like him. He may have his party members rooting for him, but just look at Michael Foot in the 70's - gets huge turnout and support at rally's yet he cannot win the national vote.
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Re: UK General Election, 2017

Postby jamescfm » Sat May 20, 2017 8:55 pm

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Re: UK General Election, 2017

Postby Aquinas » Sun May 21, 2017 12:00 am

matthewleitch wrote:I am a libertarian in Britain- my options are literally Conservative and that is it. They're the only party which economically aligns with me.


The Conservatives are actually toying with quite a few "big government"/"interventionist" economic policies at the moment, which is upsetting some of their own supporters. But I can see why you still prefer their economic policies to those of the other main parties.

What I am tempted to ask, though, is how comfortable you feel, as a libertarian, about Theresa May's record on civil liberties issues? There are a lot of question marks hovering over her on this. Here are a few links to give you a flavour of what I'm referring to:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ry-tell-us
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... SDU1GjyuUk
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/civi ... .lyAejp6Ob
https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/07/ ... free-zone/
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/t ... assuring/#
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/05 ... utin-blush

I'm personally a supporter of the Liberal Democrats, so as you might guess, I'm sort of hoping you might consider switching your vote :). There are libertarians within the Liberal Democrats. In my experience, libertarian-types tend to be not so keen on all of our economic policies (which they find too big government), but tend to be more keen on our stances on civil liberties issues.

Of course, there are also some libertarians in both the Conservatives and Labour, but they often find themselves in a difficult place with regards to the positions their parties take on civil liberties.

*

Whilst we're talking about libertarians...we've already mentioned former Labour leader Michael Foot quite a few times. Foot, as some may know, used to describe himself as a "libertarian socialist". Interesting thought, that. Although I'm guessing not everyone is going to agree over whether or not "libertarian" and "socialist" can link harmoniously together.
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Re: UK General Election, 2017

Postby jamescfm » Sun May 21, 2017 8:46 am

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Re: UK General Election, 2017

Postby Pragma » Sun May 21, 2017 9:29 am

jamescfm wrote:
Aquinas wrote:Whilst we're talking about libertarians...we've already mentioned former Labour leader Michael Foot quite a few times. Foot, as some may know, used to describe himself as a "libertarian socialist". Interesting thought, that. Although I'm guessing not everyone is going to agree over whether or not "libertarian" and "socialist" can link harmoniously together.

They can and must. How can a completely capitalist system grant true liberty? Where is the freedom from poverty if you can be left die because you're made redundant?


Nobody is arguing for a completely capitalist system, neither I assume are you arguing for a completely socialist system.

And on your earlier point, I don't hate Jeremy Corbyn at all. I think he's a decent and honest man - but I think he'd be an awful PM.

I do however think May shouldn't have called an early election I am certainly not writing of Labour, who I admit are constantly gaining in the polls (for no reason other than the collapse of UKIP)
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Re: UK General Election, 2017

Postby jamescfm » Sun May 21, 2017 9:44 am

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Re: UK General Election, 2017

Postby Pragma » Sun May 21, 2017 11:22 am

jamescfm wrote:They can and must. How can a completely capitalist system grant true liberty? Where is the freedom from poverty if you can be left die because you're made redundant?


Nobody is arguing for a completely capitalist system, neither I assume are you arguing for a completely socialist system. [/quote]
That's sort of my point, if you accept that a completely capitalist system cannot work then you accept that libertarian socialist is not an oxymoron.[/quote]

They aren't diametric opposites. Libertarian communist is an oxymoron. You can be socially libertarian and economically restrictive. As much of the left is.
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Re: UK General Election, 2017

Postby Hrafn » Sun May 21, 2017 12:49 pm

Aquinas wrote:Whilst we're talking about libertarians...we've already mentioned former Labour leader Michael Foot quite a few times. Foot, as some may know, used to describe himself as a "libertarian socialist". Interesting thought, that. Although I'm guessing not everyone is going to agree over whether or not "libertarian" and "socialist" can link harmoniously together.

That's nothing new. Libertarian socialism is the original form of socialism, as well as the original form of libertarianism. And it makes sense - if you remove all government intervention in the economy and strictly abide by the non-aggression principle, capitalism collapses. Corporations can't exist without the state (or some kind of organized application of force) and neither can absentee property rights. With no centrally enforced currency, how would money-based wealth disparities be upheld? I'm not sure if this is what this Foot meant by libertarian socialism, but it is what it meant back in the 19th century.

The problem, of course, is that there will always be people seeking to exploit others through violence, and therefor there must always be an organization that uses violence against those people, and that organization will always try to use its monopoly on violence to exploit others. How do you convince 51% of the population to refrain from benefiting at the expense of the remaining 49%? You can't. That's why libertarianism and socialism are impractical.

Until everyone can 3D-print AK-47s in their basements and grow their own food in their own gardens and get their own electricity from their own solar panels, at least. That could maybe lead to a permanent stand-off. Maybe.
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Re: UK General Election, 2017

Postby jamescfm » Mon May 22, 2017 3:51 pm

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