Kurdistan

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Kurdistan

Postby Hrafn » Fri May 12, 2017 9:07 am

What do you think about Kurdish separatism/nationalism?
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Re: Kurdistan

Postby Axxell » Fri May 12, 2017 11:23 am

They need a nation, they shall have a nation. the borders in middle east are artificial borders created in 1918, it is time to rethink to all the situation
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Re: Kurdistan

Postby Aquinas » Fri May 12, 2017 1:56 pm

I've a lot of sympathy for the Kurds, as they've had an appalling time of it.

Not without empathy for the case for a Kurdish state, but I've gotta say this is an incredibly difficult, dangerous and unstable part of the world, which makes it difficult not to feel cautious about the idea of redrawing national boundaries and creating new states.
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Re: Kurdistan

Postby Hrafn » Fri May 12, 2017 2:37 pm

Aquinas wrote:I've a lot of sympathy for the Kurds, as they've had an appalling time of it.

Not without empathy for the case for a Kurdish state, but I've gotta say this is an incredibly difficult, dangerous and unstable part of the world, which makes it difficult not to feel cautious about the idea of redrawing national boundaries and creating new states.

I would say that the region is unstable precisely because of the lack of nation-states.
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Re: Kurdistan

Postby Aquinas » Fri May 12, 2017 3:17 pm

Hrafn wrote:
Aquinas wrote:I've a lot of sympathy for the Kurds, as they've had an appalling time of it.

Not without empathy for the case for a Kurdish state, but I've gotta say this is an incredibly difficult, dangerous and unstable part of the world, which makes it difficult not to feel cautious about the idea of redrawing national boundaries and creating new states.

I would say that the region is unstable precisely because of the lack of nation-states.


There is a degree of truth in this, and my own country (the UK) bears some of the responsibility for all of that, historically speaking. But even so...the Middle East is such a tinderbox, the idea of creating new states out of the existing ones makes me a little edgy, that's all.

Out of interest, how would you draw the boundaries for a new Kurdish state? I guess the most obvious option would be to carve Kurdistan out of the Kurdish part of Iraq, but you can imagine the trouble that could cause, not only with Iraq but with Turkey as well.
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Re: Kurdistan

Postby Maxington » Fri May 12, 2017 9:27 pm

I don't mind the Kurds having the northern portion of Syria (which they are currently fighting to control), but i think that if they should have that northern portion they should promise to the Syrian Government that they forge extraordinary levels of cooperation between each other. I think Turkey should come to realize that the world is changing and that the Europeans are not the best at borders (look at Belgium and the Netherlands for a perfect example). I think for any progress to be made in the Middle East, regime change would have be done in the Peninsula states and Iran.
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Re: Kurdistan

Postby Auditorii » Sat May 13, 2017 4:26 am

Maxington wrote:I don't mind the Kurds having the northern portion of Syria (which they are currently fighting to control), but i think that if they should have that northern portion they should promise to the Syrian Government that they forge extraordinary levels of cooperation between each other. I think Turkey should come to realize that the world is changing and that the Europeans are not the best at borders (look at Belgium and the Netherlands for a perfect example). I think for any progress to be made in the Middle East, regime change would have be done in the Peninsula states and Iran.


Turkey is about as intelligent as a brick right now, I wouldn't put too much stock in them being useful.

If Kurdistan became a state I think it would inevitably be a Western ally in the region, much akin to Jordan. They've got a knack for fighting and actually care about democracy (from what I can see) and they've been self-governing in Iraq for quite sometime. I think that it's only a matter of time but the Russians, Iranians, Chinese (maybe) would oppose it alongside Turkey and probably Syria because it takes part of their land. If I remember correctly Kurdish Iraq also has quite the amount of oil fields, so that's another HUGE point of contention.
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Re: Kurdistan

Postby SelucianCrusader » Sat May 13, 2017 8:44 am

I know a couple of Kurds IRL and I have a great degree of sympathy for the Kurdish cause. The developments in SDF-controlled Northern Syria shows of a lot of promise. A Kurdish state could be an oasis of democracy and secularism in that part of the world and a important partner for the west, an ally for Israel etc.

I agree that the instability in the Middle east partly comes from the fact that many of the states there are artificial constructs whose borders where drawn by the colonial powers with little regard for historical boundaries and their respective religious and ethnic make-up. Some proposals for redrawing the borders of the middle eastern states where made already back in 2005/6 and discussed during the Bush administration. It's quite interesting, although sadly I can't see how those could be implemented in any peaceful way...:

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Re: Kurdistan

Postby Polites » Mon May 15, 2017 8:49 am

Hrafn wrote:I would say that the region is unstable precisely because of the lack of nation-states.


By that I assume you mean "ethnically and religiously homogeneous nation-states", because otherwise most states in the Middle East already are nation-states.

SelucianCrusader wrote:many of the states there are artificial constructs whose borders where drawn by the colonial powers with little regard for historical boundaries and their respective religious and ethnic make-up


I presume you mean that those borders are somehow more artificial than the borders of any other states, given that all borders are artificial in the sense that they are man-made.
Plus most of those states have been around for almost 100 years, which is quite a long time for non-viable artificial states.

In any case, drawing the borders of the Middle East in order to achieve ethnic and religious homogeneity is a recipe for disaster, both because that would be impossible to implement (given the multi-ethnic and multi-sectarian character of the entire region), and because it would ultimately lead to ethnic and sectarian cleansing. You can't neatly divide Iraq into a Sunni half in the north and a Shia half in the South, with all the oil conveniently in the middle, if only because both sects are distributed throughout Iraq, not to mention the potentially disastrous consequences to befall those finding themselves on the "wrong" side of the border.

And in what concerns Kurdish independence, most people talking about the "brave Kurds" and swooning over the Peshmerga and the SDF ignore the fact that the two are very different entities, often in direct conflict with each other, and with vastly different interests and priorities. The KRG ≠ SDF/Rojava/YPG/PKK; the former is already de facto independent within Iraq, and apart from occasional posturing with the goal of gaining larger concessions from Baghdad, has no incentive to pursue independence, while the latter don't even want independence since they are critical of nation states and nationalism (even Kurdish nationalism) and prefer instead some trans-border system of "democratic confederalism". The KRG is on very good terms with Turkey and is opposed to Assad, while the SDF gets along with Damascus and is on good terms with both the US and Russia (quite an impressive achievement) while being Turkey's no.1 enemy.

And even if the two "factions" were to reconcile their differences in the interests of Kurdish solidarity, the differences between Iraqi Kurdistan and Syrian Kurdistan (Rojava) are too great to somehow merge the two into one state. The KRG has a clear Kurdish majority, while in Rojava Kurds are only a plurality (or very slight majority), with a lot of Arabs, Assyrians, Turkmen, etc. sharing the region. Uniting the two would not be any more "natural" than the already multi-ethnic Iraqi and Syrian states, and might be even worse for non-Kurds finding themselves under the new state.

What would be a better solution is to expand the Rojava model across Syria - federalize the region on local, rather than ethnic/linguistic/sectarian lines, and maintain the current borders with reduced powers for the central government. It seems to be working well under the SDF, and given the potential support of both the US and Russia for this system, may ultimately encourage Turkey to re-initiate peace talks with the PKK and implement a similar solution to their Kurdish issue. Iraq on the other hand already has solved its problem; the KRG is, for all intents and purposes, an independent state, all it needs to continue functioning is wider acceptance in Baghdad for the idea of federalism.
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Re: Kurdistan

Postby TheTsar » Thu May 25, 2017 6:10 pm

SelucianCrusader wrote:I know a couple of Kurds IRL and I have a great degree of sympathy for the Kurdish cause. The developments in SDF-controlled Northern Syria shows of a lot of promise. A Kurdish state could be an oasis of democracy and secularism in that part of the world and a important partner for the west, an ally for Israel etc.

I agree that the instability in the Middle east partly comes from the fact that many of the states there are artificial constructs whose borders where drawn by the colonial powers with little regard for historical boundaries and their respective religious and ethnic make-up. Some proposals for redrawing the borders of the middle eastern states where made already back in 2005/6 and discussed during the Bush administration. It's quite interesting, although sadly I can't see how those could be implemented in any peaceful way...:

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