Triviality

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Re: Triviality

Postby GreekIdiot » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:10 am

Amazeroth wrote:@George:

Is your belief based on rational analysation and trying to grasp what is possible to be understood by humans, or does it come from a vague feeling?


Its roots do lie in a vague feeling I have about the conceptions of the human mind, but it all ends up at providing a rational, according to my logic at least - some of you may think I am inherently crazy, analysis about what is impossible basically for humans to understand and to correct the misconceptions they have about those meanings.

Why are you asking?
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Re: Triviality

Postby Amazeroth » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:17 am

Because I'm always interested in why people believe what they believe. It is also useful in order to prepare a discussion, for example, if you had written "I believe it because every night an angel appears and tells me to", I would have known that further discussion would be pretty useless.

Anyways, if you say it is basically impossible for humans to understand the real "concept" of the universe, and that they had to develop the time/space theory just to make themselves feel better, where then comes your assuredness that there cannot be any God? Surely, if people really are incapable of understanding the universe, or even its basic principles, how could you be so sure about something, that is even harder to grasp by human means?
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Re: Triviality

Postby GreekIdiot » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:24 am

Amazeroth wrote:Anyways, if you say it is basically impossible for humans to understand the real "concept" of the universe, and that they had to develop the time/space theory just to make themselves feel better, where then comes your assuredness that there cannot be any God? Surely, if people really are incapable of understanding the universe, or even its basic principles, how could you be so sure about something, that is even harder to grasp by human means?


Because I believe that the concept of the ultimate god is yet again one of man's development attempts, just like the time/space/existence theory for the universe and the world we live upon. God, for me at least, represents man's fear for the unknown and just like the time concept, it provides a web of protection, filled with an enclosed mask, where humans may rest in safety and provide multiple explanations about what we observe or feel, whereas otherwise they would have to confront concepts like vagueness and the indefinite without any support or loose justifications.

Such kind of discussions that involve the human existence and logic, as well as the concepts of universe are highly fascinating to me.
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Re: Triviality

Postby Amazeroth » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:37 am

I see what you mean, but, if all theories that try to explain the universe and our existence, or the existence of everything, are necessarily nothing but a more or less worthless attempt to really understand what is going on, then no sure statements can be made about the universe at all - even the uselessness of any attempts to understand the universe. If you're right, everything's possible, and nothing is verifyable - and thus you simply wouldn't be able to say "You're wrong" to anyone, regardless if he says that he believes in a God, or in chance.
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Re: Triviality

Postby GreekIdiot » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:41 pm

Amazeroth wrote:I see what you mean, but, if all theories that try to explain the universe and our existence, or the existence of everything, are necessarily nothing but a more or less worthless attempt to really understand what is going on, then no sure statements can be made about the universe at all - even the uselessness of any attempts to understand the universe. If you're right, everything's possible, and nothing is verifyable - and thus you simply wouldn't be able to say "You're wrong" to anyone, regardless if he says that he believes in a God, or in chance.


No disagreements with that, but in this "virtual world" we still have laws and the like. We exist, time exists and space defines us. So within this world I try to understand that we cannot understand the real concept of things (the one I explained and which I believe in about the universe) and therefore I refuse the existence of God and accept that after death I fall into nonexistence. But that doesn't stop me from living.

And in your statement, the everything still cannot be defined, nor the possible or the verifiable. We just align the words, give a certain meaning to them and add our own personal concept of it. Still we can't define "personal" so basically it's a headache. I don't know if anyone understands me at this point because I am beginning to lose myself as well. But it's fascinating. I'd love to hear your view Amazeroth.
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Re: Triviality

Postby Amazeroth » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:22 pm

[quote="George S.K]
No disagreements with that, but in this "virtual world" we still have laws and the like. We exist, time exists and space defines us. So within this world I try to understand that we cannot understand the real concept of things (the one I explained and which I believe in about the universe) and therefore I refuse the existence of God and accept that after death I fall into nonexistence. But that doesn't stop me from living.[/quote]

Of course we are still living, so indeed something must be happening at the time, but this has nothing to do with us understanding what happens. But if we aren't able to understand the real concept, this doesn't mean our theories aren't right, it just means they aren't verifiable, and thus it all comes down to believing rather than knowing. And if it is indeed so, then nobody can say that a God doesn't or cannot exist, he can only believe. He can search for certain indicators to help him rationalise his belief, but he can never truly know. And it's the same vice versa, of course - there can never be absolute proof of God's existence, just as there is no absolute proof of anything at all (after one, even that 1+1 = 2 is nothing but an established theory).
What I mean is that, by saying that a greater concept of the Universe can never be fully, or even a little, understood, you can only justify that you believe that there is no God, but it doesn't make your belief a necessary truth.

By the way, the idea of us never being able to fully know a thing is what I always thought to be what your own Socrates meant by his famous quote (which I know only in German, and I heavily regret not having learned ancient Greek in school).

And in your statement, the everything still cannot be defined, nor the possible or the verifiable. We just align the words, give a certain meaning to them and add our own personal concept of it. Still we can't define "personal" so basically it's a headache. I don't know if anyone understands me at this point because I am beginning to lose myself as well. But it's fascinating. I'd love to hear your view Amazeroth.


I fear that I don't fully understand what you mean by this. By definition, do you mean only the linguistic one, or do you mean definition itself as something that can never be fully done?
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Re: Triviality

Postby GreekIdiot » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:37 pm

Socrates wrote:I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.


Is that what you meant? I also believe in that.

What I mean is that, by saying that a greater concept of the Universe can never be fully, or even a little, understood, you can only justify that you believe that there is no God, but it doesn't make your belief a necessary truth.


Yes, I second that.

Disregard my last thoughts (the ones you quoted that were also second).
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Re: Triviality

Postby Amazeroth » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:01 pm

George S.K wrote:Is that what you meant? I also believe in that.


Exactly. Me too.

Did you learn ancient Greek by the way?
Eines Tages traf Karl der Große eine alte Frau.
"Guten Tag, alte Frau", sagte Karl der Große.
"Guten Tag, Karl der Große", sagte die alte Frau.
Solche und ähnliche Geschichten erzählt man sich über die Leutseligkeit Karls des Großen.
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Re: Triviality

Postby GreekIdiot » Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:00 am

I have been learning them straight down for the past 5 years. Not an academic level of course, but I can read, translate and the like. Ancient Greek is the remnants of old times, so when you read them, you just become nostalgic and wonder how it was back then.
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