Sand castling

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Sand castling

Postby socrev » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:53 pm

I am sure this is not the first time that this issue has been raised, nor will it be the last, nor am I the only one concerned about this. But is there ANY WAY that people who are responsible for this game could fix the way that new and returning Parties get seats in elections?

Why is it that a Party who spends time every day building an electoral coalition, gaining seats, passing bills and all the things we are supposed to do can lose an election to a Party who just shows up, votes on a couple bills here and there, proposes an omnibus positions bill which gets zero votes, and then stands for an election and wins a plurality?

Why is it that a Party which goes inactive in a country, and either stops playing for several RT years or plays in a different country for hundreds of IG years suddenly gets to come back and reactivate and keep all their old positions and get all their old votes in the next election?

Why is the game so heavily balanced AGAINST the people who have been playing in that country for hundreds of IG years in favor of brand new players? That is completely unrealistic and absolutely unfair. And I seriously doubt that anyone who has put a lot of time into a country only to have it all taken away by some brand new johnny come lately Party or some returning Party which hasn't player in the country for centuries would disagree with me.

Isn't there something that could be done to fix the balance between established Parties and new Parties which would force them to gain their seats incrimentally instead of all at once, and give the "people" of our countries some fricking political loyalty? Isn't there something that can be done that can protect the sand castle we have spent centuries building from the random action of waves or the inconsideration of the kid who is not watching where he is going, comes into our lives briefly, messes up everything that we have made and then disappears from our lives just that fast?

Or is this something which we have to put up with, week after week, RT years after RT year until we finally get sick of the absolute pointlessness of actually working hard on a country, because we know that at any moment, it could all be kicked into dust by a visiting or a returning Party who neither knows anything about the country, nor particularly cares to learn about the country before proceeding to enact a radical alteration in the nation's constitution, treaty regimes, and legislation?
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Re: Sand castling

Postby Siggon Kristov » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:21 pm

I'm not sure how this is a Bug Report, but if you want total control of a country, you should try one of these games...
- Cyber Nations
- NationStates
- Tropico

If you want your work to last, try writing a fantasy novel about countries and you can make up a culture for each. You can put all this work in a wiki for others to see, after securing copyright details for your novel.
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Re: Sand castling

Postby Aquinas » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:12 am

Personally I've always found that it can be just as fun playing a party that has suddenly lost most of its seats as a party which has a majority or near-majority in the legislature. It is the shifts in the balance of power which keep the game dynamic and fluid. I agree about the realism thing though...it does seem a bit unrealistic and unfair for a party to have disappeared for ages then come straight back and win loads of seats without doing very much. Don't want to sound too much like I'm moaning, though. I appreciate there are people with different views on issues like this, and the programmers(s) have limited time/capacity to change all the things people want changing :).
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Re: Sand castling

Postby Siggon Kristov » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:33 am

Aquinas wrote:Personally I've always found that it can be just as fun playing a party that has suddenly lost most of its seats as a party which has a majority or near-majority in the legislature. It is the shifts in the balance of power which keep the game dynamic and fluid.

Exactly.

Aquinas wrote:I agree about the realism thing though...it does seem a bit unrealistic and unfair for a party to have disappeared for ages then come straight back and win loads of seats without doing very much.

That does annoy me too, but socrev is also complaining about new players/parties, not just the old ones that pop back up.

Aquinas wrote:the programmers(s) have limited time/capacity to change all the things people want changing :)

It's not about time; Wouter just can't make certain changes, or he'll risk breaking the entire game.
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Re: Sand castling

Postby Afrocentric » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:16 am

It is what it is; I just roll with the flow.

I haven't had the most seats or been in power since 3147 so yeah, it's a tad bit annoying that newer parties are suddenly able to rise up and win the presidency and/or have a majority in the nation's legislature, but that's what makes the game great I guess. It allows for parity among the masses; even if they reward the newer parties over the establishment.
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Re: Sand castling

Postby socrev » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:19 am

I'm not talking about absolute control. I'd just like it to be a bit more realistic- where brand new parties actually have to work for a majority/plurality like everyone else had to and where ancient and long forgotten Parties can't come back and pick up exactly where they left off.

I think this is more than a bug- it is an exploit and seasoned players use it strategically. I think this is my real concern- if it is impossible, as suggested above, to add a few lines to the code to make it more difficult for brand new parties to suddenly come up with a plurality as if by magic, it shouldn't be so hard to erase the positions and exposure of inactive parties which nobody IG would ever remember because they haven't been active for centuries. That's like an ancient party from the roman senate days suddenly coming back into being and all the people suddenly voting for them. It is a ridiculous glitch, wipes out role playing potential, and is, at the worst an exploit.

But I don't think it would break the game to make it harder for parties with zero exposure to gain seats so that it is balanced until they actually have run in a platform for a while, built their organization and contested in a few elections.

All I am asking for is a bit of balance, to keep those of us who actually put the work in on the country from getting s--t on by the algorithm.
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Re: Sand castling

Postby Aquinas » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:23 am

socrev wrote:All I am asking for is a bit of balance, to keep those of us who actually put the work in on the country from getting s--t on by the algorithm.


Real-life politicians have a problem like that too. It's called "the electorate" :)...
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Re: Sand castling

Postby socrev » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:27 am

Under no circumstances does the GOP ever have to worry about the Whig Party in the US making a resurgence and reclaiming their title of Second Party that they held in 1848 from them. Real life politicians do not have to ever worry about that. Nowhere on the globe is there the degree of selective political amnesia/deep political memory which is characteristic of our voters. In the real world, elections are not determined by pure mathematical formulas which heavily favor those that nobody in game have really even heard of.
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Re: Sand castling

Postby Aquinas » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:39 am

Maybe inactive political parties should be able to retain their visibility levels for a set period - perhaps 3 months - and then have their visibility levels set to zero.
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Re: Sand castling

Postby Siggon Kristov » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:44 am

socrev wrote:I'm not talking about absolute control. I'd just like it to be a bit more realistic- where brand new parties actually have to work for a majority/plurality like everyone else had to

I see that happening in Beluzia. New parties don't come and get sweeping majorities. The only time, that new parties do that, is when the visibility of the dinosaur party is extremely low because of lack of performance and legislative activity. If a new party comes as a second option, and it actually promises some sort of change to the political scene, people will vote for it. You should also pay attention to political niches in this game. If 2 parties, for example a Leftist and a Centrist, are the only 2 parties in a nation, they will only capture a certain part of the electorate's support. Notice, in such cases, voter turnout is low. If a new party comes along, with totally different policies that are more right-wing, that party will capture a niche. It happened in Beluzia where there were about 3-5 secular parties, then the Takanashi clan came along with radical theocratic policies. Of course, they captured a niche that wasn't being captured by the other parties before, so they could enjoy beautiful election results. The members of the electorate, who hadn't been participating when the choices were more limited, will start to participate now.
It's even worse in 1-party countries, as I mentioned. Less than 20% of the electorate votes. If a new party comes, it can capture the support of members of the electorate who weren't voting.

socrev wrote:and where ancient and long forgotten Parties can't come back and pick up exactly where they left off.

That is still a problem, but it's not a bug.
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