Names of countries

[jamescfm]

NOTE: The list below is outdated, please later posts in the thread for the most recent list.

Leaving aside the "Third World" for a moment, there has been a long term issue with the names of several playable countries in the game. For probably around half a dozen countries, more than one name exists. For some of these "disputes", sensible in-game reasons exist. Such is the case of New Endralon/Kizenia where two different national groups refer to the country by two different names. For many though, there is no in-game reason and the dispute is for out-of-character reasons or for no obvious reason at all.

Primarily in order to make things easier for the Wiki (i.e. to provide us with consistent names for all countries), I'm proposing that we settle the matter once and for all by determining the names of all of Particracy's playable countries. I do not want to suggest that I am against countries having multiple names like the New Endralon/Kizenia example or that I think names should be set in stone forever. Neither is the case but it would be useful to have some record of differences, I feel.

Below is a list of all the playable countries in the game. In each case, I have bolded what I believe to be the most accurate and useful name for the county and placed alternatives in brackets. Most of these cases are uncontroversial but I will offer a few explanations for the potentially contested ones at the end.

Aldegar
Alduria
Aloria
Badara (al'Badara)
Baltusia
Barmenistan (Barmenia)
Beiteynu
Beluzia
Cildania
Cobura
Dankuk (Dranland; Drania)
Davostan (Davostag; Davostan-Kivonia)
Deltaria
Dolgava (Dolgaria; Dolgavia)
Dorvik
Dundorf
Egelion
Endralon
Gaduridos
Hobrazia
Hulstria and Gao-Soto (Hulstria; Gishoto; Gao-Soto; Mikuni-Hulstria)
Hutori
Ikradon (Hawu Mumenhes; Hawu-Ikradon; Ibutho)
Istalia (Quanzar)
Jakania
Jelbania
Kafuristan
Kalistan
Kalopia (Kalopia-Wantuni; Wantuni)
Kanjor
Kazulia
Keymon (Klavia Okeanó; Klavia)
Kirlawa
Kizenia and New Endralon (Kizenia; New Endralon; Kizenia/New Endralon; Kuzaki; New Endralon, Kizenia and Kuzaki)
Kundrati
Likatonia
Lodamun
Lourenne
Luthori
Malivia
Mordusia
Narikaton and Darnussia (Narikaton; Darnussia)
Pontesi
Rildanor
Rutania
Saridan
Seko (Sekowo)
Selucia
Solentia
Talmoria
Telamon
Trigunia
Tukarali
Valruzia
Vanuku
Vorona (Deltaria Nova)
Yingdala (Indrala)
Zardugal

Notes and explanations:

• Barmenistan: it is my understanding that Barmenia was a corruption of Barmenistan, I could be wrong and would welcome input from more long-term players
• Davostan: seems to have been dominant apart from the satanist party in the country, I don't know where Kivonia came from but it seems to be a recent innovation
• Vorona: unclear on what the origin of Deltaria Nova is, again I'd welcome more experienced feedback
• Dolgava: semi-arbitrary choice between Dolgava and Dolgaria, the former seems to have been slightly more dominant
• Dankuk: seems to have been dominant and makes more sense than Dranland in my view
• Ikradon: changing the country's name to Hawu seemed to be quite a drastic, unwarranted change
• Hulstria and Gao-Soto: captures both sides of the in-game dispute
• Narikaton and Darnussia: captures both sides of the in-game dispute
• Yingdala: players in the country seem to use this most commonly, will defer to them on this
• Kalopia: doesn't seem that Wantuni is significant enough to be reflected in common use
• New Endralon and Kizenia: captures both sides of the in-game debate
• Seko: role-play justification

I don't want to dictate this by any means, I only want to open the discussion. Personally I am not any authority on the names of any of these countries and if there are players who feel they are better placed to offer an opinion, particularly on the contested cases then I urge them to offer their feedback in this thread. Perhaps if a consensus can be reached, Moderation might recognise it through the nation renaming guide.

[Augustus Germanus]

Concerning the case with Davostan-Kivonia. I can begin by explaining that it was me who first founded the nation so-called "Kivonian Republic" named after the capital city of Kivonia in 4596, my original idea was to renew Davostan (in actuality I was just playing around with the name), I was in a Ancient Rome phase, where the nation was named after its capital city, Kivonia = Kivonian Republic, Rome = Roman Republic. Later on I founded the Kivonian Empire in 4620, basically a rip off of the Roman Empire. I originally intended it to be just a one-time thing, but the player after me created a cultural protocols (http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill. ... lid=608482) officially making Kivonians a ethnic group in Davostan in the 4630s, originally part of the Davostani people but split because of religious differences I believe. In the protocols the Davostanis have Satanilism as their faith while the Kivonians have Hosianism, which is the original idea of the split, I returned a few days ago to become a more active role-player in the Davostani-Kivonian split and I am currently working with the player who made the original protocols to create new ones (http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill. ... lid=622393) to kinda realistically explain the Davostan-Kivonian confusion.

[Auditorii]

Deltaria Nova stems from the fact that the country was created early on in the games life cycle and it was "colonized" by Deltarian players hence the "Deltaria Nova". If my memory serves me correctly.

I'm not as sure about Vorona.

[jamescfm]

Augustus Germanus: OK, thanks for explaining the background for this case. Do you feel there is any issue with continuing to use "Davostan" in most contexts? No reason why role-play cannot use "Davostan-Kivonia" but I'm thinking primarily in terms of wiki categories, that name doesn't seem to have been around long enough to necessitate changing so many category names etc.

Auditorii: I thought that might be the case, given the similarity. At least in my time playing the game, the country has never been active beyond short stints (the forum thread has fewer than ten posts in the past two years, for example). It seems that between the active player base, we'll probably just have to make a decision. Vorona has been the most common in time I have played the game and Deltaria Nova obviously suggests a colonial relationship. Perhaps the best approach would be using the former as the current name, and the latter as a past name? I'd welcome other player feedback on this suggestion too.

On a related note, this might also be a useful time to compose a similar list for demonyms. It's likely that more diversity or disagreement exists on those and they obviously relate to the country's name so perhaps that will be a second task.

[Augustus Germanus]

Historically and with the rp, Davostan has been the most dominant of the two, and currently we are roleplaying that the Kivonians just recently (in 4596) managed to gain their own "real" state, so I have no issue whatsoever with continuing to use Davostan.

[jamescfm]

Thanks for clarifying that for me, Augustus.

For the sake of record, the two most prominent players in Yingdala (Indrala) over the past several years, Liu Che and Wu Han, have both expressed a preference that Yingdala is more appropriate than Indrala. Unless someone is able to make a very compelling argument to the contrary, I think it makes sense to defer to them. The most important cases are probably Vorona (Deltaria Nova) and Ikradon (Hawu Mumenhes), where I still am not clear on what would be most appropriate. In most of the other cases, I am reasonably confident that the currently listed name is what should be used.

[Auditorii]

I am personally a fan of Deltaria Nova given the fact that it does have specific RP precedent as well as being the de facto official name of the nation when it was created.

Indrala/Yingdala I've always assumed was a non-native speaker vs native speaker thing. For instance, Kafuristan isn't really Kafuristan. It's al-Qalb which means "The Heart" given its general importance to Majatrans, I did something similar with Solentia when I renamed it al-Sahil which means "The Coast" given its coastal location. Mina, formerly Ciftuingan is al-Mina which means "The Port" in Arabic.

Narikaton and Darnussia (N&D) really just reflects the fact that the nation is/was bitterly divided and has significant RP justification via the various Narik Wars throughout the games history. I can't really say that Moderation, myself especially, would have any interest in a ret-con or change to that.

Hulstria is a little trickier and I think has some personal issues for players.

[Wu Han]

Hulstria is a little trickier and I think has some personal issues for players.

I don't know what personal issues are implied here, but it's common sense to me that the name of the country is Hulstria and Gao-Soto, considering the historic importance of Gao-Soto, the extensive lore built up around the specific union between the two polities, and nearly 2000+ years of history during which some form of the combined name was used. If Narikaton and Darnussia have enough RP justification for their name, H&G-S has more than enough legitimacy.

[jamescfm]

With respect to the native speaker discussion, all of these names should be assumed to be the "Luthorian" names for the country. As is the case in the real world, many countries will call themselves something different to what the English-speaking world calls them. None of this means that Yingdala cannot be called that, since its not uncommon for countries (and cities) to change their English names for a variety of reasons. The in-game explanation can be that Indrala was always an exonym and that eventually the country officially mandated its English name be Yingdala. If Liu Che and Wu Han think that makes sense, of course.

I think that Vorona does seem to have been the dominant name for at least the past few years. Deltaria Nova, if we want to persist with it, makes more sense as a former, colonial name for the country.

The nature of the Hulstria and Gao-Soto situation is such that I don't want to re-litigate it here, there's no argument I can imagine that would convince a neutral party (i.e. me) that there's a problem with both names being included.

[Kubrick]

Deltaria Nova should be kept as an alternative name. There's a lot of history behind it. Tidying up the names is good but it shouldn't be too revisionist. And the whole native speaker discussion, James, that would also mean changing the in-game name of Vanuku to Wrnuke.